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You're most welcome Tom,it really feels great that my advices are helping you!
That's great for your new fry!
A commercial breeder,what a great thing! specially for GBR and apistos! that due to long travel during importing them,arrive very fragile to aquarium keepers. that's great really!
I wish you all the best! and hold one you will have total success just a bit more to control it from all sides! Your method of raising them seem perfect.
 

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First, I'm very sorry for what has happened. But I know that.
Killi-juveniles who fled still not got out of the pond, get Oodinium or Costia. Where do the pathogen? From the brine shrimp? Or from the Walther worms. I do not believe in that.
I suspect, not the fish are sick, but the pelvis.
Then I take out the fish and disinfect the sink with hot water.
Everywhere on the discs, on the ground and on the plants are the seeds. Most fish can only see them.
There is no proof, but I believe it.
 

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I CHANGE WATER
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Discussion Starter #163 (Edited)
Quick update on rams and apistos.
Traded in 17 apistos and 26 rams this weekend.($146 in store credit).
I did keep 6 of the apistos who are all in a 40B with live plants,terra cotta pots and trays.I'm trying to be patient but they are probly 1 year old now so they need to get moving!
I got a betta tank(http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Blue-Professional-ADB11006-2-3-Gallon/dp/B00BUFTDNO ),and 1 5g along wth ordering 3-4 more 5g's.I haven't set any up yet.
I had 2 pair in a divided 30B who both laid eggs and became free swimming the same day the 40B communtiy of GBR had a massive amount of free swimmers!I never even saw any eggs!
I pulled the divider,syphoned the fry in 40B directly to the 30B(with other 2 batches) and removed 1 pair of adults.I left one pair of adults with the fry as the behavior and activity level of fry with /without the parents is night and day!I left the fry with parents around 5-6 days.In this time the fry went from 600-150?
I moved parents yesterday.
Hopefully I have a decent amount of fry still in the 30B.This is kind of opposite the direction I was /am going(with 5g tanks) ,but I'm opene to try ANYTHING!
I now have 4 pair in their own tanks;20L,2 in 20 T and 1 pair in a 10 fully planted with gravel and pot.The pair in the ten are largest and lay eggs weekly,Yet they eat the eggs EVERYTIME in 2 days!
The others are doing well.
I'll update when I set up all the 5's or something good to report(hopefully good/not bad!).
When I set up all the 5's I will scrub and sterilise all my empty tanks,and start a huge effort with the rams!
 

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Student of Fire
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I've been looking for a pair of apistos at my lfs. The last pair they had looked like it was on death's door so I passed on them. They haven't gotten any in a while. Awesome fish though. Seems like you're doing an awful lot right!
 

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I CHANGE WATER
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Discussion Starter #166
I've been looking for a pair of apistos at my lfs. The last pair they had looked like it was on death's door so I passed on them. They haven't gotten any in a while. Awesome fish though. Seems like you're doing an awful lot right!
My apistos took atleast 2-4 time longer to "grow out" compared to the GBR and are still the pickiest eaters?They just look at me almost everyday with a WTF look?I offer only the best next to live.Even with this they are skinny to "healthy looking" AT BEST!
They are a tough fish,and I really hope I get something out of the 6 I kept(2 males at least?),as I started only with 2 pair over a year ago.So having six and credit for fry makes me completely even I'd like to get a little ahead!
The rams as challenging as they are and still my main focus have paid me back and made alittle to boot!It is nice if your hobby can support itself.I'm on over 1 year of not spending ANY money at my #1 LFS and still sit on $500 store credit.
I still spend some money on web sites or for co2 ,but all in all it is good ,just like a little better(don't we all?).
 

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I CHANGE WATER
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Discussion Starter #167
Cleaning and moving today.
Moved 17 juvis from the 30 long to the 55.
They really seem to appreciate all new water and everything!
Have been doing around 10g every other day on the 30B with fry.
There are still 50? fry and they are all staying in a school/shoal group(this is a good sign!).I let new replacement water water drip back in over 1 hour for 5g.It seems to be working.
 

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I CHANGE WATER
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Discussion Starter #168
Just Caught 1 pair of the apistos(almost a hidden male{meaning he was not the dominat appearing})laying eggs on a broken pot in the 40B with all 6!
I actually caught both male and female,pot and plants in area and transferred them to a 29g 1/2 filled(and waiting for a pair!).
I actually counted 3 eggs on the pot.
Even if I TOTALLY disturbed them I know they will do this again!
I am excited to have at least 1 pair to keep my line going.
LFS said they have 4 different kinds of apistos last weekend,maybe I'll check them out tomorrow.
See new eggs with a pair of GBR just moved on Sat to the 30 long the juvis were in!
 

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If your parents prove unreliable you can suspend a fishing lure with red markings, remove the hooks, in the tank. The fry will shoal around the color and behave more like they do with parents. Suspend the lure above the last depression the parents put the fry in and they will bed down there at night. Keeping them in group cuts the losses in the fry at night. The fry hide in crevices at night if alone and die from oxygen deprivation from lack of flow or cannot escape in the morning. They also get into gravel and become entrapped so it is better to utilize sand for a substrate. Your clay pots are the type of substrate they prefer to breed on for both rams and most apistos but the apistos generally prefer a small cave, small unbroken pot works great. it is not unusual for apistos without a proper brooding cave to tunnel into plants or dig beneath filters. While java moss makes a good hiding place it also makes a good trap for the small fry. Hair algea is a better hiding place a less likely trap for the fry. It also breeds the types of micro fauna the fry feed on. Your only choices for feeding are frozen microbes from biological supply house or finely pulverized flake food.
 

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I keep seeing feeding debates that show disparity. This along with a general lack of fish health issues. For starters I breed rams in a well seasoned tank. The tank has been running on the same filter setup for seven years without a water change or major cleaning. Now that I have your attention let me explain. This system has two fifty fives, a forty five and a thirty on a single filter setup. The filter system holds 210 gallons of water and is constantly circulating through the tanks. It is composed of four fifty five gallon plastic drums. The first is a sediment chamber allowing large waste items to sit and break down. The second filter chamber is three quarters filled with floss to trap small particles and break them down before they clog up the two nitrogen oxygenation chambers. The third chamber is filled with river gravel, well washed, and begins nitrogen breakdown. The fourth is filled with well washed volcanic rock and keeps the final stage of nitrogen synthesis. The volcanic rock also keeps minerals in the water that helps to keep plants and fish healthier. I only clean the front class of the tanks and occasionally vacuum the tanks into the filter system. Water is added to the system to counter evaporation. The main fifty five is heavily planted and the others are bare glass. The algal growth on the tank walls provide a habitat for the microbes that these tiny fry feed on in the wild. And the fry graze every waking moment. They can strip a end wall of a fifty five in a day. Even with a healthy tank a large school will still require supplemental feeding. The tank is simply not a large enough area to feed them properly.
 

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I CHANGE WATER
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Discussion Starter #172 (Edited)
I totally dig the difference there can be.It seemed very quickly that myself not feeding 6 times a day may have been my flaw!
I do not believe this today!
Sorry!
I counted today and have aprox 40 fry/juvi from a totall of aprox 600 I would say .This is the 3 breeds in total.
But they look good.They are in a 30B(36x18) and seem to be "past the point of my concern".
I think the java moss and Hair algae could be a serious factor!
Too many times I saw swordtail fry get "caught up" in the Java Moss.It catches stuff like a furnace filter.
Unfortunatley I just sorted out (for real) like all the hair algae from my moss(throwing the algae away).
This will not happen again!
Hard enough to grow moss at elavated temps,the hair algae thing makes total sense.
Thanks!
How funny I search for more on your filter and here is some!
Please share more on how you are running your set up and any help with the GBR is hugely appreciated(my passion).
For everyone (old school on this post) I'm pretty pshyched on having 40 fry!Was getting close to 0 ,which hasn't happened since start of thi thread!I would really like to get this right!
 

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I wasn't gonna weigh in here but................. I have been breeding Rams and Discus for years. My pictures here show I can breed Rams. I'd like some clarification to these comments-

"This along with a general lack of fish health issues"

IMO and IME a fish with health issue will not lay eggs or breed. Also in one of your other posts you talk of buying Rams from pet stores...........sorry all my breeding pairs are Wild caught. The only domestic Rams are the off spring......and those I can't breed fast enough for pet stores and hobbyists in my area.
 

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I wasn't gonna weigh in here but................. I have been breeding Rams and Discus for years. My pictures here show I can breed Rams. I'd like some clarification to these comments-

"This along with a general lack of fish health issues"

IMO and IME a fish with health issue will not lay eggs or breed. Also in one of your other posts you talk of buying Rams from pet stores...........sorry all my breeding pairs are Wild caught. The only domestic Rams are the off spring......and those I can't breed fast enough for pet stores and hobbyists in my area.
So obviously you do well and understand how your method works. I have been breeding fish since 1970, have bred 763 species, and have had to stop breeding every species I ever bred for pet stores due to overstock of species. From corys to frontosa, venustus to bumblebee cats (south American species), discus to bettas. I am currently sitting on a thousand green corys( or bronze cory, anues species) that I am currently breeding because stores in the area could not find healthy stocks. My basic argument wit most people on health issues is that they over sanitize their tanks and then cannot properly feed small fry. They then contaminate their tanks trying to feed them with unnatural foods that they cannot digest completely. Using the corys as an example; a breeding cycle yields 9grams of eggs. The total weight at hatch is about 7.3 grams. Properly fed these fry should double their weight three times in two weeks, 58.4 grams. After this they should double their weight every four weeks until adults. At adult threshold they weigh in pounds not grams. If the growth rate is not stable then feeding is not sufficient either in amount or types of foods.
 

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Discussion Starter #176 (Edited)
Quick update:
40 fry doing great in the 30B.Eating frozen tubiflexand some crushed flakes now.Saw biggest one eat a frozen blood worm today!
New free swimmers in the specV with my youngest parents.There are probly over 100.They are very active ,I leave light on 24/7 and feed as often as possible with frozen BB and sera powder.Changing 1-2 g a day and dripping replacement in slowly.So far so good!I think the parents need to out a little sooner than last time(4 more days maybe)?
All other pairs were laying eggs that went bad in 24 hours so I put them all back into a 30long together to form new pairs if they will?
No new eggs from the apistos yet but they are getting very well colored and happy looking in the 29 by themselves.1 old piece of dry mopani turned their tank yellow as could be.
Also just ordered 10 GBR from California to keep my lines mixed and fresh.Really can't wait to get them mixed in with my guys and girls.
 

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I CHANGE WATER
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Discussion Starter #177
Fry in specv were eaten by parents.They were active and eating so maybe better luck next time.I think this was the pairs first spawn.
3 sets of eggs in the community 30g yesterday.I moved 2 with 1 set of parents and they have moved all eggs and fry to a corner of their tank.Third set of eggs also hatched this am and moved into a pot by parents.
GBR from CA are supposed to arrive today so I'll check back in later after I know how they shipped.
The smallest fry were moved to 33g long and seem very happy with new tank and a small hob to make more current.
 

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I CHANGE WATER
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Discussion Starter #178 (Edited)
10 GBR arrived from Ca. in wonderful condition.Sitting in my driveway(around 54 outside today) and they were still 78 without a heat pack!.Insulated box,newspaper and papertowel and 4 seperate heat sealed kordon breather bags with 3 in 2 an 2 in 2.
All acclimated to my tank(they also are in tap water(7.6 pH) when sold.My tank was all ro/di,but I also prepped 32g of tap.So after testing pH I dumped 1/2 of the 40b and added back pre warmed tap and got these guys loose in under 1 hour!
They are actually a little smaller then my last 17 I thought about trading in this weekend,but maybe I should just mix the two groups?
How should I go about mixing my lines?
Mix them and let nature do it?
Or actually mix 1:1 mine to theirs?
I have a little while to figure this out as they are in what some may call QT.
Honestly i just prepped a seperate tank and am in no hurry to mix until I know it is safe.
Pair in the specv is laying eggs again tonight!
 

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I CHANGE WATER
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Discussion Starter #179
OK all 10 from CA are still doing great! Need to figure out how to mix them with mine?
Taking a different approach on the fry parent thing this time.
Have 3 sets of fry with one set of parents all freeswimming!
Let them hang and bound for 2-3 days and have put the parents in to breeding nets(seperated male and female just for hummanity)in the tank with em still,but unable to eat any.
Did this yesterday and all still seem fine today.
Pair in the specv has hatched fry probly free swimming tomorrow or Sun?

So how do I mix mine and theirs? I may start a seperate thread asking for help(I know some here are way more up on breeding then me{help!}).
 
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