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  Topic Review (Newest First)
10-11-2012 08:33 AM
Aquapparel
Re: Proline vs Prime

Haven't tried Proline but I really like Prime.
07-24-2012 12:36 AM
Reefing Madness
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick1258 View Post
... Fish tanks are different from things like gardens poop help plants grow yes, but ammonia in a fish tank is a different story, ammonia, nitrite and nitrates if not taken care don't get better in a matured tank it gets worse and will slowly kill your tank the tank only sustains itself for a fairly short period of time before it gets out of hand and you need to assist it. The closest to me doing something like this and letting my tank sustain itself was with my biocube I left my house for 2.5 months on a trip and only had my neighbor feed my fish (I know not that responsible), but in that period 50% of my coral and fish died. (it was my first tank, and my neighbor didn't really keep me noticed). I tested Water and everything was very high, so much for sustaining itself.
You should see BOBs tanks, you would understand why I pound on him not to post that gibberish on here.
07-23-2012 10:44 PM
Nick1258
Re: Proline vs Prime

... Fish tanks are different from things like gardens poop help plants grow yes, but ammonia in a fish tank is a different story, ammonia, nitrite and nitrates if not taken care don't get better in a matured tank it gets worse and will slowly kill your tank the tank only sustains itself for a fairly short period of time before it gets out of hand and you need to assist it. The closest to me doing something like this and letting my tank sustain itself was with my biocube I left my house for 2.5 months on a trip and only had my neighbor feed my fish (I know not that responsible), but in that period 50% of my coral and fish died. (it was my first tank, and my neighbor didn't really keep me noticed). I tested Water and everything was very high, so much for sustaining itself.
07-23-2012 08:39 AM
beaslbob
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefing Madness View Post
Again, try and keep up here Bob. we are already talking about a new tank, and trying to keep those parameters in check, thus doing water changes to lesson that impact.

Also, care to try and explain that which is highlighted in your post. This I must hear.
Ref:

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob
IMHO if you are stabilizinf ammonia and nitrite through water changes you have very big time problems. Which water changes will not correct.

the correction is to use the natural processes of the tank to convert ammonia and nitrIte things not toxic. Like fish food in the case of plant life or nitrates in the case of bacteria action. then to convert nitrates to fish food.
Plants and algae if not directly consumed by fish, snails, and other animals provide an environment for pods, snail eggs, and so on which are consumed by the fish.

So ammonia, nitrates, phosphates, carbon dioxide are consumed by the various plant life and recycled into oxygen and fish food.


Just like everywhere else on earth.

my .02
07-22-2012 09:32 PM
Reefing Madness
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
IMHO if you are stabilizinf ammonia and nitrite through water changes you have very big time problems. Which water changes will not correct.

the correction is to use the natural processes of the tank to convert ammonia and nitrIte things not toxic. Like fish food in the case of plant life or nitrates in the case of bacteria action. then to convert nitrates to fish food.my .02
Again, try and keep up here Bob. we are already talking about a new tank, and trying to keep those parameters in check, thus doing water changes to lesson that impact.

Also, care to try and explain that which is highlighted in your post. This I must hear.
07-22-2012 08:07 PM
beaslbob
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick1258 View Post
Agreed I was referring more to the weekly water changes to stabilize ammonia and nitrite levels.
IMHO if you are stabilizinf ammonia and nitrite through water changes you have very big time problems. Which water changes will not correct.

the correction is to use the natural processes of the tank to convert ammonia and nitrIte things not toxic. Like fish food in the case of plant life or nitrates in the case of bacteria action. then to convert nitrates to fish food.

my .02
07-13-2012 12:19 AM
Reefing Madness
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick1258 View Post
Agreed I was referring more to the weekly water changes to stabilize ammonia and nitrite levels.
07-12-2012 09:56 PM
Nick1258
Re: Proline vs Prime

Agreed I was referring more to the weekly water changes to stabilize ammonia and nitrite levels.
07-12-2012 09:52 PM
Reefing Madness
Re: Proline vs Prime

Welp, both cases into account. But, looking down the road, your not letting the improtant key to take hold. Nitrates. You must have enough of them to sustain the environment, by changing out the water so frequently, your messing with nature and its way of dealing with the situation on its own, thus extending the cycle. That is why we preach patience, I know it sucks waiting for a new tank to get it over with, but, its been proven time and time again, the more you screw with a new tank, the longer it usually takes to cycle.
07-12-2012 09:44 PM
Nick1258
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishman81 View Post
monitored the amonia everyday including nitrate and nitrate and 95% of the time amonia and nitrite were unmeasureable. I'm not giving out what i said as advice, just saying as long as your not dealing with teretorialism and such between fish, stocking is relative to how many water changes your willing to do. This is evident in lakes, streams, oceans, more water = less amonia.
This is true and I do agree water changes are a good way to take out ammonia and nitrites and other harmful things out of the tank, but in some cases ammonia and nitrite levels will increase faster than the you can keep up with water changes. And my point of view was that the nitrite level increasing may be due to the person who has the tank doing something wrong or can be doing something better, for example like over feeding could have been a big contribution to the increase in nitrite levels and ammonia. I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong just give my opinion and my knowledge I'm open to criticism. Hope this helps.
07-12-2012 07:23 PM
fishman81
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefing Madness View Post
Totally agree here.

Fishman81, just because the fish survived does not mean you didn't put them through hell in doing what you did. Ammonia is the most damaging to the gills of the fish, and you probably did do damage to them, and put them through a great amount of stress, but, like Nick said, sometimes you get lucky. Sorry bro, thats why things are done a certain way, to keep the inhabitants healthy, healthy and stress free.
monitored the amonia everyday including nitrate and nitrate and 95% of the time amonia and nitrite were unmeasureable. I'm not giving out what i said as advice, just saying as long as your not dealing with teretorialism and such between fish, stocking is relative to how many water changes your willing to do. This is evident in lakes, streams, oceans, more water = less amonia.
07-12-2012 06:40 PM
Reefing Madness
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick1258 View Post
Well there is something called luck. Water changes can definitely be a disturbance to the systems natural cycle, although I have had luck with my 29 biocube reef tank and my 55 reef tank and had them full of rock, coral and fish within 6 months, both with no problems, just did some water changes every now and then, I tried it on my 180 wasn't as lucky had spikes in nitrites for a while until I let sit and filter without water changes it began to decrease on its own.

But in this case his water changes were obviously not affective, so when that happens there are other solutions, the simplest is rock (Live Rock for Saltwater Aquariums). The ways I controlled mine on my 180 was I bought a skimmer and added a lot of rock, after a few weeks the nitrites decreased. Tanks don't always function the same.
Totally agree here.

Fishman81, just because the fish survived does not mean you didn't put them through hell in doing what you did. Ammonia is the most damaging to the gills of the fish, and you probably did do damage to them, and put them through a great amount of stress, but, like Nick said, sometimes you get lucky. Sorry bro, thats why things are done a certain way, to keep the inhabitants healthy, healthy and stress free.
07-12-2012 06:16 PM
Nick1258
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishman81 View Post
I call BS on this. I'm not proud of it but i setup a 55g tank and in a weeks time had it fully stocked and no fish died due to amonia/nitritre or nitrate. I did many 50% water changes, sometimes on a daily basis to keep the amonia down. Seeded it with gravel from another tank, and tank was fine on it's own in 2 months time.
Well there is something called luck. Water changes can definitely be a disturbance to the systems natural cycle, although I have had luck with my 29 biocube reef tank and my 55 reef tank and had them full of rock, coral and fish within 6 months, both with no problems, just did some water changes every now and then, I tried it on my 180 wasn't as lucky had spikes in nitrites for a while until I let sit and filter without water changes it began to decrease on its own.

But in this case his water changes were obviously not affective, so when that happens there are other solutions, the simplest is rock (Live Rock for Saltwater Aquariums). The ways I controlled mine on my 180 was I bought a skimmer and added a lot of rock, after a few weeks the nitrites decreased. Tanks don't always function the same.
07-12-2012 05:26 PM
elasmokid
Re: Proline vs Prime

Good info Chandavi...glad to see a paper for support to . At my university every lab has a special faucet with diH2O. So I guess you could say we have a built in RO/DI system in our water system, so I can make salt water with DI-water anytime, and never have to worry about chlorimines (or shouldn't hopefully lol).
07-12-2012 04:57 PM
fishman81
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick1258 View Post
IMO I would relax with water changes, let the system cycle all the way through, by doing continuous water changes you stop the natural cycle, as long as the nitrite are not increasing pass your average 1.0 ppm then your cycle is just trying to mature. You should try adding rock and live sand it helps the natural cycling of your system.
I call BS on this. I'm not proud of it but i setup a 55g tank and in a weeks time had it fully stocked and no fish died due to amonia/nitritre or nitrate. I did many 50% water changes, sometimes on a daily basis to keep the amonia down. Seeded it with gravel from another tank, and tank was fine on it's own in 2 months time.
07-12-2012 03:44 PM
Reefing Madness
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandavi View Post
I will note that this method will only lead to a decomposition of about 50% of the chloramines in the water, even over a week's time. I would direct you to a short paper on the topic here. While chloramines do decompose over time without assistance, it is not nearly as much as people might think. Additionally, an equilibrium point is eventually reached and very little decomposition occurs after that point. As I understand it, prime contains a catalyst which drives this reaction at a much faster rate and further removes the products of the reaction. This allows the decomposition to continue to a much greater extent than it ever would have naturally, even if you left the water alone for weeks on end.

If it works for you then it works for you, but I felt that this should be mentioned. Since the OP is also apparently working in a scientific field with these products, a further understanding of chloramine composition might prove useful knowledge in the future.
Bravo!! Excellent post!!
07-12-2012 02:00 PM
Chandavi
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
By letting the tank set for a week before adding fish.
I will note that this method will only lead to a decomposition of about 50% of the chloramines in the water, even over a week's time. I would direct you to a short paper on the topic here. While chloramines do decompose over time without assistance, it is not nearly as much as people might think. Additionally, an equilibrium point is eventually reached and very little decomposition occurs after that point. As I understand it, prime contains a catalyst which drives this reaction at a much faster rate and further removes the products of the reaction. This allows the decomposition to continue to a much greater extent than it ever would have naturally, even if you left the water alone for weeks on end.

If it works for you then it works for you, but I felt that this should be mentioned. Since the OP is also apparently working in a scientific field with these products, a further understanding of chloramine composition might prove useful knowledge in the future.
07-12-2012 01:33 PM
beaslbob
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandavi View Post
If you don't use Prime "or other chemicals," how do you deal with chloramines in your water supply? Or do you simply use 100% RO/DI and re-enrich with powdered mineral additives?
By letting the tank set for a week before adding fish.

then just topping off.

I do use the diy two part for calcium, alk, magnesium. And I used to dose a little bit of iron (ferris gluconate- 1 pill in an old single serving bottle- one capful each week).

Although RO/DI is supposed to be "necessary" for delicate hard corals, I have found this method works definately for any fish. I have used it in 1/2 dozens cities as I moved around in the air force. So as long as the tap water is potable it should be fine. Plus our current tap water does use chlorimines.


my .02
07-12-2012 12:37 PM
Chandavi
Re: Proline vs Prime

Quote:
Originally Posted by beaslbob View Post
Although I have used prime in the one emergency situation I had, I do not recommend it or other chemicals as part of routine maintenance.

What I recommend is starting the tank balanced out with macro algaes right from the beginning. That way the macros will consume coarbon dioxide and return oxygen while consuming ammonia durint the initial cycle. Then after aerobic bacteria build up the macros will consume nitrates because that is the only nitrogen avaialble.

Before using macros I did get a nitrIte spike but found that by not feeding the fish the first week the nitrItes only lasted a few days.

my .02
If you don't use Prime "or other chemicals," how do you deal with chloramines in your water supply? Or do you simply use 100% RO/DI and re-enrich with powdered mineral additives?
07-12-2012 12:11 PM
beaslbob
Re: Proline vs Prime

Although I have used prime in the one emergency situation I had, I do not recommend it or other chemicals as part of routine maintenance.

What I recommend is starting the tank balanced out with macro algaes right from the beginning. That way the macros will consume coarbon dioxide and return oxygen while consuming ammonia durint the initial cycle. Then after aerobic bacteria build up the macros will consume nitrates because that is the only nitrogen avaialble.

Before using macros I did get a nitrIte spike but found that by not feeding the fish the first week the nitrItes only lasted a few days.

my .02
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