cycling with fish is very inhumane(inducing alot of stress on the fish). for your question on what fish to keep check out royal grammas and neon gobies

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I agree with you petlover you should never cycle a tank with fish, LR should be all you need to cycle your tank but if you want you could toss in a small piece of raw shrimp of even frozen fish food can work.

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Thanks petlover, I'll check them out.

I threw another small piece of fish (that was on sale, and I'm pretty sure rotten by the time I got it home. lol) in there Sunday and the ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites are starting to rise. I was getting a little anxious when nothing was happening. lol. I ordered another 16 lbs of lr so moving that back and fourth across the tank will give me something to do over the next few weeks or months or however long it takes.

Thanks again,
Greg

So my nitrates, nitrites and ammonia are all back to 0 after only a week. Kinda weird. But I'm going on vacation next week so I'll check it again when I get home. Another question though =). hehe. My ph hasn't moved from 7.8 from day one. I've read that adding baking soda will raise it. Would you recommend doing that? Also, I read that your supposed to add Calcium, Strontium, Iodine and Trace Elements for the lr. Would you recommend this either?

Thanks in advance,
Greg

Fishless cycle is always the way to go! Much less cruel than to try to save a fish through a cycle.


Fishless Cycle

Check out the fishless cycle notes. Very helpful!!!
I believe the general rule is 1lb per gallon.

OK. Wait a minute! You guys have a problem with putting a live fish in, but its fine to put one that was slaughtered? Whats the difference exactly? The live one in the end will live....When cycling with fish the fish dont usually die, wish FW atleast.

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Actually the fishless cycle i suggested uses PURE AMMONIA without additives.... Not dead fish...

I don't think we know the full extent of damage that is done during a 'fish in' cycle but why torture something that depends on you to take care of it, when you can boost the ammonia super high with a fishless and it take less time than a fish in cycle..?

I wanted to try the pure ammonia and looked for it at the store, but was afraid I would get the wrong stuff any really mess everything up. As far as the "dead fish" goes. I read on a link that someone here posted and it suggested adding a 1"x2" piece of fish (or shrimp) and I seen a $12 filet marked down to $3 (it would of just ended up in the garbage anyway, it smelled terrible) so I thought I'd give it a whirl. The first batch of lr I got from the lfs was super clean and didn't seem to do much, but the second batch I ordered online wasn't quite as clean and I think helped more. Both fully cured.

I'm just trying to do as much right as I can. I don't want to have a ton of money wrapped up in something that's just going to cause a lot of frustration. I'm sure I'll make a ton of mistakes, but I'm hoping it will be fun, relaxing, enjoyable, etc...... =)

I belive the ACE brand at ACE hardware does not have any surficants or chemicals orr you could always use your Urine. I know plenty of people that have. It is not going to 'hurt' anything and you will be doing a very large water change before you add in fish soo....


COPIED FROM:
Fishless Cycling for Saltwater Aquariums (Paradise Pets: Fishless Cycling for Saltwater Aquariums)
"Cycling" your marine aquarium basically means growing beneficial bacteria in the filter before you add any fish. When the tank is cycled, the filter can remove fish wastes. If the tank is not cycled, the fish will be forced to swim in their own waste products. This, in turn, will cause them to become sick, and perhaps to die. So cycling properly is very important. The method described below takes about a month.

You will need to test the water several times during the cycling process. You can bring a sample in to your dealer for testing. It is much more convenient, however, if you have your own test kits. The basic ones are not expensive, and are easy to use.

Step-By-Step Method

Add enough 6% ammonium chloride solution (approximately 1/2 teaspoon per 20 gallons will be needed) to give an ammonia test reading of 1.5 - 5.0 ppm.
Wait 24 hours. Test ammonia again. If lower than 1.5 ppm, add another 1/2 teaspoon of ammonium chloride solution per 20 gallons and test again.
Repeat as needed until the ammonia reading remains stable between 1.5 and 5.0 ppm overnight.

Add one pound of cured live rock or rubble per 20 gallons.
Wait 5 days, and test for nitrite. Make a note of the date and the test result. Repeat the nitrite test every 2-3 days. Be sure to write down the date and the test result each time.

You will see from your nitrite test results that the level of nitrite in the tank starts off slowly and then increases until the liquid in the test vial becomes very red. It remains like this for a while, and then drops off, finally reaching zero. When the nitrite level reaches zero, this indicates that you have grown a very large population of beneficial bacteria.

Before You Add Fish to Your Tank

Test the water for nitrate. (Notice that nitrate and nitrite are two different things.) If the result is greater that 12.5 mg/l, you should change about 1/3 to 1/2 the water in the tank before you add any fish.
Also test the pH of the tank at this time. If the pH is lower than 8.0, change 1/3 to 1/2 of the water in the tank before adding animals.
You can add new animals every 10 - 14 days. Remember not to overcrowd your tank. Do not try to put large fishes into a tank that is too small for them.

It is wise to check ammonia and nitrite levels before, and a few days after, adding new animals. If either of these tests is anything other than zero, do a partial water change immediately. A positive test for either ammonia or nitrite indicates that your filter bacteria are not doing their job properly. In this situation, it is important to take quick action to protect the health of your fish and/or invertebrates. About a week after you add your first fish, and each week thereafter, you should test both pH and nitrate. Write down the date of these tests, and the test results.

Schedule a water change of 20 - 25% when nitrate rises above 25 mg/l or when the pH falls below 8.0. If nitrate seems to rise very high in a short period of time, you may have too many fish in the tank, or you may be feeding them too much.

Ok. So over the past few weeks I've added 6 trochus snails, 10 blue leg hermits, 2 red leg hermits and 2 emeralds. They're pretty cool. They eat non-stop. I've started the water changes and the nitrates, nitrites and ammonia are all still 0. Now, I'm trying to decide on some sort of sand sifter. The guy at the lfs mentioned a cucumber and I think they're pretty cool but the releasing toxins thing kind of makes me nervous. My question is do they release enough toxins to worry about or should I shoot for something like a orange marked goby or something like that?

oh yeah. and I have "Caribsea Arag-Alive Special Grade Reef Sand". I don't know if that matters or not.

You would be better off with sandsifting snail and or a gobie because IMO you tank is much to small for cucumbers and sandsifting stars.

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Ok. Thanks. The cucumber idea kind of made me nervous anyway and a gobie would be nicer to look at. =) I hadn't heard of a sand sifting snail before. I'll have to see if I can find some info on those too.
Thanks again!

Here you go Saltwater Aquarium Invertebrates for Marine Reef Aquariums: Super Tongan Nassarius Snail

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Oh. Thank you. =)

Nassarius snails or a olive snail would be fine to clean the sand for a closed system of your size. Have you had a diatom outbreak yet? Also I would stay away from Damsels. They are real aggressive for a tank that size. If it were mine I would get a pair of clowns (of course), a six line wrasse or a royal gramma, and a small goby like a yellow watchman) Seems like you got a decent clean up crew. Maybe a very small serpent starfish. They are real cool. ;)

Thanks maryg. Yeah, I had what I believe is diatom. It was kind of a brown algae that was focused where my power jet blows out and spread around to the front. There are a few really small red spots too. And after the snails cleaned it up there are little white bugs crawling all over the glass. I haven't figured out what they are yet. They're so small I think Im going to have to find a magnifying glass to even be able to identify them. Thanks for your input.

Greg

That's kind of funny. I haven't completely decided yet, but I was thinking a pair of clowns, a royal gramma and a yellow watchman.

Cool. Looks like you got some copepods. Great scavengers and food for your fish.

I found some Nassarius Snails at the lfs. I only bought 6. Wish I would of got more. They're super cool. =)

sorry i have not posted on this thread for a while but i just wanna put in that u should make sure u have alot of caves in the live rock...thats a must for RG's. i have never actually kept an RG before but i researched them for 1 month+ straight. they have been known for attacks on clowns, so try and look for a female. females are not as colorful, purple usually goes down past the pelvic fins, and are not as aggressive. they are actually a relative of the grouper and do have alot of grouper-like traits(i.e. huge mouth, very territorial). if u do get a royal gramma, add it last as it will become the dominant fish in the tank and if added first it will establish a territory(the whole tank), and be very aggressive. that usually happens with all territorial fish. just my 2 cents on RG's

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lol.

Thanks for your advice. I wasn't aware of that.

I also found out that the sand I have is good for sand sifters and soft belly fish, but not the best for burrowing. So I may also have to scratch the yellow watchman goby or change the sand. Not sure what Im going to do yet.