Hi everyone.

I hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I have a 40 gallon tank that has been up since first week of September. I brought it home, I set it up, (put in the gravel, put in the decorations, put in the live plants, put in the heater, the thermometer, the filter, the air stone, etc...basically acted like there were fish in there though there were not), and waited.

Right on schedule, at about week 2, the water started to turn cloudy. I knew that this meant things were happening that were supposed to be happening. At this point I turned off the air stone because someone informed me that I would "over oxygenate" my fish so I figured just get used to it not being used.

I waited longer.

I waited for 5-6 weeks. The water never stopped being cloudy. I did my tests. My tests came back with the readings they should.

I decided to get some fish an give it a go. The very first fish I got was a betta. He swam around happily and was quite the character.

I then got some panda platys, a pleco, (the small kind), a kuhli loach and some Danios. Oh and 3 cardinal tetras.

Well, as you may well know, cardinals are not that hardy and they died off almost immediately.

Then two platys died. Then the loach died. Then the Danios were dying.

I tested the water again, I did a 20-25% water change, everything was coming back as it should. I took water to the fish store and had them run a test. Their tests matched up with my test readings. I told them my water was still cloudy after all this time. They gave me chemicals to use. I replaced some of the fish.

Brought everything home, slowly introduced the new fish to their new environment, waited a day. I then followed the directions on the chemical bottle, (AmQuel), to a tee. Two days later my betta died. He had been doing great until I added this garbage. I'm really bothered by that one.

Slowly, other fish started dying. Once a day, another fish dies.

Do another water change. Test again. Everything is where it's supposed to be. Water is still cloudy, however, plus I'm starting to get algae by this time.

Got a sponge from the fish store, got some more fish to replace dead ones, slowly introduced them, everyone swam around happily....

The next day, another fish dies. The next day, another fish dies. The next day, another fish dies.

This past week I did two water changes, 20-25% each time. (And yes, I use a water conditioner...and yes, I aerate the water 24 hours before adding it in.) Water still cloudy, fish still dying. Tests still come back reading what they should.

Decided to turn on the air stone as I saw one of my original Danios dying and was getting desperate for a solution.

Well! Less than 24 hours after doing that, the water was definitely clearing. The Danio still died, as well as the last original Danio I had, (seriously, SIGH), but the water was clearing.

Two days later, I was now able to see through my tank, see my background, see everything. It's still not crystal clear but I can actually SEE in to my tank and all the way through it two days after turning on the air stone. Did another test. Yep, same results, as they should be.

The next day, another Danio dies. And the pleco.

Tested the water again this morning because I see a cory now acting like it's going to die. Test results are still good, water is really clearing up, but my fish keep dying.

This tank has been set up since September 09, 2011.

The test results are as follows, (each time):

PH: 7.4
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: Under 5ppm
Chlorine: 0
Temp: 72-74 F

I have an AquaClear filter that runs 200gph so the filter is sufficient for this size aquarium.

I have gravel, not sand, not coral. All decorations have been rinsed. When I do change a filter cartridge, I rinse it in aquarium water, (out of the aquarium, of course), before putting it in.

I read somewhere that sometimes there is electricity in the water so I unplugged the original heater I got to see if that would make a difference. (I have two heaters, Maine winters can be brutal.) No, the cory is not looking good.

I see no Ick, I see no tail rot. I have moss balls and three other live plants in there. They are growing beautifully and thriving.

I do not overfeed my fish. (Now starting to wonder if I feed them enough?)

I do not over clean my tank. When I change a filter cartridge, (such as the carbon), I change one at a time and I never change on the day I do a water change. I never fully clean the gravel, I stir up a little and use the gravel vacuum to suck up the dirty water.

As far as I know, I'm doing everything by the book but my fish keep dying. Every single day, I wake up to find another dead fish.

I now have left:

Three panda platys, three (maybe soon be two), panda corys, 2 loaches, 3 Danios, (last time I checked, light isn't yet on and won't be for another few hours).

I am not adding in any more fish and won't add in any more fish until someone fricken makes it longer than a week, (I have ONE original fish left in there now, a panda platy who has made it longer than a week but everyone else keeps dying).

What am I missing? What is going on?

Wow, sorry to hear you've had so much loss.

Going back, did you rinse your gravel really well? How many days did you wait before you added fish? I'm unclear if you already had fish in the tank before the cloudiness started showing? Have you ever tested your ph throughout the day to see if it is steady or going up and down? Are you on softened water in your house?

You have a lot of fish in there for a cycling tank. You could have started with about 4 and kept it that way until the nitrogen cycle had completed. Are you familiar with the nitrogen cycle? If not, I'd google it and read the short description of what happens. I am surprised that you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites with your fish in there. Possibly, you could be already through it depending on when fish were first introduced.

I would do like you said, stop buying and let it all settle down. Test daily. Perform 30-45% weekly water changes. When and if you buy a fish (once you are sure the cycle is complete), you should add no more than 2-3 per week. You have to give time for the bio-filter to catch up to the new fish.

What type of test kit are you using,the liquid or the strips?(sorry if it was mentioned)

How are the fish acclimated?Improper acclimation can also have an ill effect on fish.

Could you tell us how the fish act before they die?

I am sorry you are having these issues,hopefully we can help you work them out.

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http://bountifulbettas.blogspot.com/

"Come to the dark side....we have cookies...and filters/heaters/and water changes!"

"I brought it home, I set it up, (put in the gravel, put in the decorations, put in the live plants, put in the heater, the thermometer, the filter, the air stone, etc...basically acted like there were fish in there though there were not), and waited....I waited 5 to 6 weeks...."

The water has been cloudy since week two. I waited 5-6 weeks before putting in fish. I ACTED like there were fish in there. There were no fish in there. I waited over a month to a month and a half. Fishless. The water never stopped being cloudy. Fishless. Since week 2 the water was cloudy. At 5-6 weeks, the tests were giving me the results I sought so despite the cloudy water, I put some fish in there.

I did not put all of those fish in there at the same time. I started out with one. A betta.

I was told that doing a fishless cycle, (which I had, no fish, for 5-6 weeks), would take about 5-6 weeks. I tested the water and it gave me the results that I was informed meant the cycling was complete despite the fact that since week 2, the water was cloudy.

Yes, I'm aware and familiar with the nitrogen cycle. As stated, I've had an aquarium before. I cycled this way before. With no fish. This tank cycled with no fish for 5-6 weeks.

I added about 6 fish a week. Everyone kept dying, I added more to replace them. I guess maybe this was wrong.

I am constantly checking the PH as well as everything else. I can't tell exact times because I do them at random times because I am getting desperate for an answer. No matter when I do them, no matter what time of day, they always come back the same.

Today another Danio died, my loach died, and that cory is probably going to die...it's still hanging on.

I have:

3 panda platys, (that seem...SEEM to be doing fine...and one of those platys is one of the "original" fish I bought meaning, while I did not buy that fish the first day I put a fish in the tank, I have had him in the tank about 2-3 weeks and THUS far, (knock on driftwood), he is doing great).

3 corys, (who knows how long that will last)

2 danios

1 loach

majerah: My test kit is the liquid kind. It's the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. I have a chlorine test by Red Sea.

Acclimation is not too far away from the drip way I've read about here. I have little buckets, I put them in there. I slowly add in some of my own tank water in there. SLOWLY. I then take a net and fish them out and put them in the tank.

I'll tell you how the cory is acting right now because typically the fish die in the middle of the night when I'm asleep and I wake up to find them.

The cory was on his side, (I righted him), and at first I thought he was dead. I went to fish him out with the net and noticed he was still breathing but it was pretty rapid. It's almost like he's gulping for air. I brought him to the surface and let him take a breath like they do naturally and then put him back down in the tank, upright.

I wonder about everything. Did I rinse the gravel enough, did I rinse the tank enough, is it the plants, is there some parasite I can't see, am I not feeding them enough, do they not like the light, do I not have enough of them of their kind and they are "depressed", (if fish can get that way), maybe they hate the background...I know...but dang, I'm looking for anything.

As I said, I turned off the airstone at week 2 because I was informed that it was unnecessary and may kill the fish. This past week I turned it back on because I'm running out of ideas and all the fish perked up. The danios were playing in it, and the one that ended up dying anyway was doing a whole lot better at least for a few hours after I turned it on.

The water did do a whole lot of clearing up after that but it's still not crystal clear; it's still a little cloudy.

I'm so afraid I'm going to completely fail at this. I thought bigger tanks were supposed to be easier and I'm finding it is so much harder than when I had the 10 gallon years ago.

I'm killing fish left and right and that's really not making me feel good at all.

Ok, I just did the PH test again just to see if there were any changes. It's so hard to tell because the colors are rather similar but I did the regular and the high PH test just to clarify.

It said for sure 7.4 on the high PH test.

When I do the regular PH test, it looks like it could be 7.4 or 7.6...

????

Edit: Counted the weeks since I started the whole set up, we are on week 9. The water is still cloudy. Even though the ammonia and nitrites are 0 and the nitrates are under 5ppm...maybe it's NOT done cycling? The water is still cloudy so...ugh, I don't even know anymore. I just know I'm a fish killer.

try the test strips, they might work better(i've never actually cycled or tested my aquarium tank and all of my fish are perfectly fine, except for the poor little cardinal tetra that keeps on getting bullied by my bigger cardinal tetra that's a little lopsided. don't know if that's a sign that he's getting old or not. will try to figure out how to post pictures in posts

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Please correct me if i mispell a word.

<- That looks like a fish in a jar. Poor fishy. :(

Really? I was told that the liquid tests were more accurate than the strips.

When I took a sample in to the lfs, they had the strips and their readings were a little different than mine, (said the PH was 6 something), but everything else came out the same. (To clarify, this test at the lfs was about two weeks ago, not current.)

So many different opinions...I'll try anything at this point.

I might be missing something, so wait for someone to agree with this, but you did a fishless cycle, did you add an ammonia source? if not the tank probably did NOT cycle.

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"Being ignorant is not so much a Shame, as being unwilling to learn".-- Benjamin Franklin

I did not put ammonia in there because I had/have live plants in there.

I set the tank up as if there were fish in there and that included putting the plants in there. The plants have been in there for 9 weeks. They are thriving and doing beautifully. I don't use CO2 or anything, either.

Hi, sorry for you troubles. I think you will find by not adding ammonia you didn't start the cycle. IMO you have not cycled but it doesn't explain why you have the reading like you do. Just wanted to clarify that you are using BOTH bottle 1 and bottle 2 when testing??

Fish gulping,this means either ammonia or lack of oxygen.How anyone could tell you that you can over oxygenate a tank is strange.Thats something I would kinda believe with raising brine shrimp and thats only because bubbles get trapped under them.Not the same with fish.I suggest turning the airstone back on.Not all fish breathe atmospheric air.

And do not try test strips they are inaccurate.

A fishless cycle usually has no fish or plants because the addition of ammonia will not do well with them.However,a silent cycle is where you place lots of plants and let them get established and then slowly add a fish or two every week or so,to allow the filter to build up the bacteria.I think someone told you wrong,or you had confused aspects of both together.

__________________
http://bountifulbettas.blogspot.com/

"Come to the dark side....we have cookies...and filters/heaters/and water changes!"

Without fish waste, raw meat, or some other ammonia source, there cannot have been a cycle. You are likely experiencing it now...

__________________
"Being ignorant is not so much a Shame, as being unwilling to learn".-- Benjamin Franklin

Ok guys, here's what I've done...

Actually, harvey, yes I'm using both bottle 1 and 2 and doing the whole shaking thing it says in the instructions.

Alright, I went to the fish store, (the better one), to buy a skimmer. Didn't think about one of those until reading a thread on here about someone's 30 gallon long tank they got in Craig'slist, (nice deal!).

I think the connection is too short because I don't think it's low enough and the filter is now loud. Ugh. But hopefully it does something and I'll turn it off before I head to work in about 1/2 hour.

I had read about salt on here so I asked about that. The guy who knows his fish told me it was a great thing to get, electrolytes and all that so I got some.

He also offered me 10 gallons of their reserve water, (they hold 200 gallons reserve), and said to do a 25% water change with that.

Was this right, was this wrong, I do not know. I asked him if I should do the water change now and add the salt now as well as some TLC, which he remembered I bought from him the last time. (Good memory.)

He said, "I wouldn't normally recommend that but is there an urgency?"

To me, yes, there is. When I'm losing 1-3 fish a day, there is an urgency. Maybe I'll end up killing them all, I do not know. What I do know is, I don't know what else to do.

So...we will see what happens.

I added 5 tablespoons of salt. The instructions said 1/2 tablespoon per gallon for stressed goldfish and whole tablespoons per gallon for tropical fish. I don't have tropical fish nor do I have goldfish so since I have 40 gallons, I did 5. I do not know if this was right or wrong either.

I then added two capfuls of TLC.

This was all after I did the 25% water change.

If this fails and I end up killing everyone, (which at this rate, was going to happen anyway), I'll tear it all down and start all over.

Wish the filter would stop being so noisy with this skimmer. Am I right in my guess that my connection is not long enough because the bobbing part is just BARELY under the surface but I cannot add any more water unless I overflow the tank.

Sigh...should have come here first. I read I could do a fishless cycle with plants. Dang it.

Sorry fish. I'm so sorry.

I am holding off on getting any new fish for the time being. The fish guy said that was the best idea, that I was, "not in a good place right now", and I should wait a month, (if what we just did today actually works).

He's going to let me get 10 gallons of water every single week from their reserves and said to do that for an entire month.

Thoughts? Did I just totally do everything wrong by doing this? I'm so desperate for a solution, I'm trying just about anything.

Thanks everyone.

Edit: Forgot to add, yes, their PH is lower, it's pretty neutral, about 7.1 so I may end up killing them all just with that. There is no ammonia, no nitrites and low nitrates. He said their water in reserves is mineral free, (meaning what I might find in tap water). Ok, have to work. Hope to everything I don't come home and find all dead fish.

You don't need a skimmer with a freshwater tank. What is TLC if it isn't tender loving care?

What Summer posted was correct. It was good that you got your plants in there and established before the fish. However, without any type of ammonia source the nitrogen cycle never starts. Ammonia starts everything.

I think using the water the fish store provides is not a bad idea per se, just don't think it is needed or will fix your problem. It may not be a good idea to do 100% water from them, however. It will alter your ph, kh, and gh more than likely. Just depends on what their water readings are. Just let your tank settle out. Adding in RO water, TLC (whatever that is), and salt is not letting stuff settle, IMO.

Really?

From this forum, a sticky, no less:

"You should also do a section on the "silent cycle" aka using a lot of plants, since plants eat ammonia and nitrates, no nitrites would form or need to be dealt with. Using this method you can add fish right away without the wait, but have to keep up on the plant maintenance." Posted by Rohkey 05/21/2011
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"I would like to add my .02 of the planted tank cycle.

By starting the tank with a mix of fast growing and slower growing plants right from the start it is normal to get no ammonia nor nitrIte spikes. because the plants consume the ammonia directly.

therefore there is no stress on the fish at any time. In fact the plants remove the carbon dioxide and return oxygen so if anything the fish feel little to no stress at all.

Because of chlorines, chloramines and what have you I recommend you stock the tank then wait one week before adding fish. that way the plants will be in control and the water conditioned for fish.

then add a very low (1 fish for a 10g tank) fish load and wait one week. During that time do not any food.

After the week stock up the tank and start very light feedings.

what results is the "silent" or phantom or whatever cycle where there are no ammonia nor nitrIte spikes but there can be an initial nitrate spike as substrates (for instance) may leach out nitrates as well as ammonia. The plants are consuming the ammonia and not using nitrate for their nitrogen.

then as the aerobic bacteria build and consume ammonia, the plants are forced to use nitrates for their nitrogen. So nitrates finally drop down after 3-4 weeks or so.

And that's the basic "silent" planted cycle using fish.

my .02" Posted by beaslbob 05/26/2011

"Originally Posted by sondre View Post
Hi guys,

Quick question about "planted cycling" .

So i set everything up (put gravel,plants,decorations in,fill it with water ) and just wait a week without doing anything?
no need to do any tests / no need to add ammonia ???

Sorry if this sound stupid question,it just seems too easy :D Want to make sure i got it right before i mess things up .

Reply: "It's easy because plants are so good at filtering water and nature is designed to have fauna/flora balance each other out.

It's difficult because in order to achieve the silent cycle, you need to have a lot of plants.

Either way...I've read that you don't have to wait at all, but it probably would be good to wait a week as beasl suggested for the reason he mentioned along with letting the plants settle and grow a bit before the bioload is introduced. Ammonia isn't needed because you're not trying to cycle the tank but you could add a small amount. The plants will do most of the work and the small amount of bacteria that forms will form slowly over the next couple months". posted by Rohkey 06/08/2011
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Again, I had/have plants in there from the beginning. I waited longer than a week before I added fish in there.

This is from a sticky about fishless cycling on this very forum.

Not sure I can break out what you're trying to say?

1) how are your plants doing, how many plants and what size tank?

2) Killing the lights and suspending feeding will clear the tank.


Ps there is a reason I wait 1 week then add 1 fish and then don't add food for a week. the reason is to prevent cloudy water and dead fish.


my .02

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fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

The plants are thriving. They look great. First time with a planted tank. Didn't do CO2...just put them in there and thought I'd learn as I went. Don't know why it's working but for the plants, it is working.

40 gallon tank and about 10 (maybe more) plants.

I will try the killing of the lights and not feeding for a bit.

Thanks!!!

beaslbob, I'm doing what you said and so far, the water is almost completely clear and I've gone a whole day without losing a fish.

Here's hoping it continues to work! Thank you so much for the suggestion!

gld to hear and I hope you eventually can go several years without losing a fish.


FWIW I had a 10g planted I started and used way too much light. It clouded up very nicely so I use a water polisher filter and it cleared up. Then clouded up again. It only stayed clear when I reduced the lighting so I learned about killing the lights big time.

Plus on a more recent tank it was not clearing up untill I stopped the feeding.


Funny thing is that after this initial black out and stop feeding routine, usually the tank just stays clear but sometimes I do have to continue with less lights and feeding.

This even works for people who have big expensive reef tanks. With a lot of comments like "it couldn't be that simple".

still just my .02

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fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden