I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank...

ClinicaTerra · 11-12-2010, 12:01 AM

Hello, Forum.

First-time poster here, so please go slow and welcome me with some kid gloves!

Here's the situation: We've been running a 60-gallon rectangular since I'd say the summer and have been, up until now, successfully keeping three fancytail goldies -- however, the way in which we arrived at the state we're in now, and how we set this tank up via unorthodox methods of cycling, etc. is a whole different discussion, which I'll get into, because it's kind of boggling to say the least...

Upon setting up the tank months ago, we rinsed all the glass, gravel, ornaments and artificial planting, filled it with tap water, treated it with conditioner, and started running an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 filter plus two bubble walls for extra aeration. We let the tank run like this for some time, without adding Stability or any chemical to do a cycle -- I got the strip test kit from Jungle (I know not as good as the chemical kits, but...) and tested the water until everything came back in the "safe" zone, including ammonia. Then, we introduced two fancytails, one being a Red Cap Oranda (medium-small sized) and they both seemed to thrive. While the water began getting a little funky and settling into typical New Tank Syndrome cloudyness, we eventually waited and tested the water again, to where it was again "safe" and so we added a third fancytail in a gold and black color arrangement.

Since that time, the tank has been ridiculously unstable in just so many ways -- we still have all three fish, and they appear to be doing well, but almost from the very beginning, our water has been horiffically cloudy and never got better...then, I thought one of the goldies came down with Ich, so we started treating with Kordon's Rid-Ich, which stained everything in the tank as well as our carpets from drips. On a recommendation from another site, I stopped the Rid-Ich (and subsequently the Stability routine I was doing) and began treating with heat and salt. When the heater we bought accidentally burned our carpets of our brand new house, I had enough of the heat method -- although that wasn't really what made me stop medicating. It seems the Ich turned out to be an apparent growth spurt sign on the goldfish's wen, and so the Ich was misdiagnosed amidst stained tank, carpet and other headaches.

So, the Ich was not treated any longer, and I went ahead and added a second filter -- an Aqueon QuietFlow 20 -- just to supplement the larger 55 model on the other end of the tank. This seemed to prove to do nothing, as the water quality didn't improve, and I was told I was severely underfiltering my goldie tank. In the middle, we attempted water changes which turned out to be a DISASTER -- we were using the Top Fin gravel vac/syphon that we subsequently ended up returning because we couldn't get it to work after multiple tries and gallons of spilled water on our rugs; eventually, we kept one and attempted the water change again, only to be frustrated once more and heading towards the old fashioned vase-in-water removal of the water which was BACKBREAKING and TIME CONSUMING. When everything in our room was soaked with water, we gave up on water changes and gravel vacs.

Still, the water is hazy (the Bacterial Bloom haze, not quite an Algae Bloom) and has never cleared -- just the other day, we went out and bought an AquaClear 110 filter and returned the small Aqueon for the 110 (I was advised this was the best HOB filter to buy and would be good with my other Aqueon for maximum filtration). I set up the 110 the correct way, with the sponge block, carbon and then biomax pellets in the media basket, but it has been running three days straight now and the water still isn't clear...also, I had started Stability all over again during this time, and I have about three more days to go to finish the treatment...

Me and my wife are totally at our wits' end here with this whole thing; we're about two steps away from draining the tank and giving up. I realize it takes awhile for a tank to stabilize and cycle, thus clearing the water, but it just isn't happening no matter how much time passes. Plus, I also realize that goldfish are the hardest to keep in terms of clean tanks due to their waste and such, but why aren't TWO power filters clearing this water up? The water changes have been driving us nuts and we can't seem to get it right -- a python lead to a sink is out of the question in our house due to the location of the tank.

Is there anyone that could assist with this ongoing cloudy water issue with our goldfish tank? Aside from the water changes, is there anything we can do to expedite the clean water arrival short of using one of those water cleaning chemicals (which I don't want to do)?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

HUMAN1ESS · 11-12-2010, 01:49 AM

To vacuum my tank I use a hose and syphon water out of a window. The to add water I fill 5 gallon buckets. It's a little rough but it gets the job done, plus I usually only do 15 gallon changes a week. It was a little messy at first (spilled a little clean water on the carpets) but you get pretty good at it after a while.

susankat · 11-12-2010, 12:56 PM

You need to keep up the water changes for the health of the fish. Being a new tank is one of the reasons for the bacterial bloom. It will eventually go away on its own if the water parameters are kept in check but will take time. Also how much lighting and for how long is it on? Can you give us the readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

You can also add seachem purigen to the filter to help clean up the cloudiness of the tank. It will come as a small bag or you can buy a larger amount in a bottle and you will need to put some into a filter bag that you can purchase at better lfs.

Goldies needs lots of filtration as they are very messy, and also lots of water changes. If you keep your house warm during the colder months you really don't need a heater on a goldie tank. They like cooler water.

J-Pond · 11-12-2010, 02:24 PM

The first thing I notice is your filtration in not enough. With fancy goldfish the filtration should be 10x's the size of the tank. So for the 60gallon you should be running filters that give you 6oogph (gallons per hour). Second thing, thoses test strips are junk, you need to get the drop kits, I know there a bit more but they are worth it.
The water changes are very important for goldies and you should be changing 20% per week. I use 5gallon buckets to do mine, I have 3 I set up the night before and 3 empty. I'm not sure how you could confuss ich and wen growth, If you could post a picture to show what you are talking about I may be able to help a bit more. Aslo please post you water parameters, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites, this will help to determine what is causing the cloudy water.

ClinicaTerra · 11-12-2010, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susankat

You need to keep up the water changes for the health of the fish. Being a new tank is one of the reasons for the bacterial bloom. It will eventually go away on its own if the water parameters are kept in check but will take time. Also how much lighting and for how long is it on? Can you give us the readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?

This isn't a planted tank (it contains artificial plants and ornaments) so I don't think the lighting is a major issue, unless it affects the water itself -- the lighting comes from an Aqueon fluorescent light strip which sits on the two glass tops covering the tank, beneath the wood canopy. The light is kept on just a couple of hours a day to feed and look at the fish. The only readings on those parameters you asked for can come from the strip kits -- I don't have the API chemical testers yet. The strips only divulge "safe," "danger," etc...

Would you like readings based on those?

Quote:

You can also add seachem purigen to the filter to help clean up the cloudiness of the tank. It will come as a small bag or you can buy a larger amount in a bottle and you will need to put some into a filter bag that you can purchase at better lfs.

Yes -- I'm well aware of Purigen, and it's something I'd like to purchase and add at some point as I understand this will "polish" the water...do they come pre-arranged in a sack or bag ready to drop into the filter from Seachem?

Quote:

Goldies needs lots of filtration as they are very messy, and also lots of water changes. If you keep your house warm during the colder months you really don't need a heater on a goldie tank. They like cooler water.

Yes, I am completely aware of the fact that they are a colder water fish, and we have no heat on during the winter months because we are in a desert climate in the Western portion of the U.S.; the tank is kept at room temperature year-round which seems to stay in the high-60s, according to my tank's thermometer.

ClinicaTerra · 11-12-2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Pond

The first thing I notice is your filtration in not enough. With fancy goldfish the filtration should be 10x's the size of the tank. So for the 60gallon you should be running filters that give you 6oogph (gallons per hour). Second thing, thoses test strips are junk, you need to get the drop kits, I know there a bit more but they are worth it.

I am working on getting the drop kits from API (is this a good one?) -- so bear with me there. Second, I don't understand why you would be saying my filtration isn't enough -- I JUST bought this AquaClear 110 to supplement the Aqueon QuietFlow 55, and according to specs, the AquaClear 110 cycles 500 gallons (U.S.) per hour, the QuietFlow somewhere around 325 gallons per hour...is this still not enough for a 60-gallon?

Quote:

The water changes are very important for goldies and you should be changing 20% per week. I use 5gallon buckets to do mine, I have 3 I set up the night before and 3 empty. I'm not sure how you could confuss ich and wen growth, If you could post a picture to show what you are talking about I may be able to help a bit more. Aslo please post you water parameters, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites, this will help to determine what is causing the cloudy water.

How can I confuse Ich with wen growth spurt? Easy -- the spot on top of the fish's head looked like a small salt/rock formation that easily resembles the "spotting" that accompanies Ich, however, it didn't spread to anywhere else on its body, nor was it on the gills or fins, so it was a misdiagnosis on my part. Remember I specifically asked in my very first post to go easy on me because I am new? Regardless, if you would have read the post in detail, you would have seen where I mentioned that the misdiagnosis is behind me now, as that was some time back and the three fish are doing fine (apparently). I did a massive water change after the misdiagnosis to remove the Rid-Ich, but it did stain everything in the tank blue (as well as parts of our carpets from spillage).

The readings for the parameters, as I pointed out to the member before you, I can only provide via the strip test kit I have...I have to go out and get the API liquid based kit.

Borgey · 11-12-2010, 05:07 PM

First of all do yourself a favor and get rid of the Aqueon filter. They are completely GARBAGE. If you're not open to a canister filter I would at least have two 110s on that tank since that's the best H.O.B filter out in my experience. Like you already know Goldfish have a very large bio load and cloudy water is most likely from just a big bacterial bloom without enough biological filtration. I would either go get a good canister filter or at least another 110. Don't let this discourage you, it happens to the best of us. Once everything evens out it's fairly easy. But until then you really need to keep up on water changes at least every other day. Once you start seeing Nitrates and no Ammonia then once a week.

ClinicaTerra · 11-12-2010, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borgey

First of all do yourself a favor and get rid of the Aqueon filter. They are completely GARBAGE.

Thanks Borgey.

Are you serious? Are they that bad...even the bigger QuietFlow 55 I'm running now?

Quote:

If you're not open to a canister filter I would at least have two 110s on that tank since that's the best H.O.B filter out in my experience. Like you already know Goldfish have a very large bio load and cloudy water is most likely from just a big bacterial bloom without enough biological filtration. I would either go get a good canister filter or at least another 110. Don't let this discourage you, it happens to the best of us. Once everything evens out it's fairly easy. But until then you really need to keep up on water changes at least every other day. Once you start seeing Nitrates and no Ammonia then once a week.

Indeed, I'm not really comfortable with going the canister route -- so another good HOB would be on the agenda. I too am thinking this is a bacterial bloom due to the fish's biowaste, but I really thought that with these two filters running, the water would get better and sustained. At any rate, how much of a water change do you recommend? More than 50%? It seems we disrupt the substrate, plants and fish pretty recklessly when we do these...

Amie · 11-12-2010, 09:21 PM

How much food are you feeding the fish?? That seems to usually be the worst culprit for cloudy water. Try not feeding them for a few days. Fish can easily go 4 or 5 days without being fed. Although, I don't let them go more then 2 or 3. Feed them very little after the few days and watch them eat. If they can't eat it all in 2 minutes then they have too much.

I found my gravel cleaner a little tricky too. The instructions said to put it in the tank and shake it up and down a few times. What a crock!!! I put the siphon part in the tank, fill it up with water, take it back out while turned upside down, close my thumb on the other end of the hose and just hold it like that- siphon in the air and hose down lower and the water in the siphon will flow down and fill up the hose, when hose is full put it back in the tank and take your thumb off the other end and viola you've got suction.

ClinicaTerra · 11-12-2010, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amie

How much food are you feeding the fish?? That seems to usually be the worst culprit for cloudy water. Try not feeding them for a few days. Fish can easily go 4 or 5 days without being fed. Although, I don't let them go more then 2 or 3. Feed them very little after the few days and watch them eat. If they can't eat it all in 2 minutes then they have too much.

I'll try this, Amie, and report back -- although I don't think this is the cause of the bacterial bloom.

Quote:

I found my gravel cleaner a little tricky too. The instructions said to put it in the tank and shake it up and down a few times. What a crock!!! I put the siphon part in the tank, fill it up with water, take it back out while turned upside down, close my thumb on the other end of the hose and just hold it like that- siphon in the air and hose down lower and the water in the siphon will flow down and fill up the hose, when hose is full put it back in the tank and take your thumb off the other end and viola you've got suction.

I'm lost already...

PolymerTim · 11-13-2010, 12:37 AM

I'm with Amie on the gravel vac usage. I was never able to get it to work by shaking it up and down, even though I've seen video online of people doing it. Either somethings wrong with my technique, or it is easier with some vacs than others. The good news is that to get a siphon going you simply have to get most of the tubing filled with water at the same time, one way or another (assuming the outlet is lower than the level of the water in the tank). I use a similar technique as Amie where I kink the tubing and scoop water from the tank into the bell and let it flow down the tubing. Once the tubing is full of water, lower the bell back into the tank angled upwards so that the bell fills with water without pushing a massive air bubble into the tubing. Then release the kink and the siphon will start.

As for cycling and cloudiness, it can take quite a while for the proper bacterial cultures to colonize and stabilize your tank. After a few months, I would've thought you'd be there, but many medications can disrupt bacterial colonies. Also, changing out your filter can set you back a bit. As for the Stability, effectiveness of instant-cycle type additives seems to be a bit sketchy at best. Sometimes they seem to work, but more often than not (based on customer reviews I've read) they don't. I think once you get the liquid test kit and get some numbers, we will have a better idea of what's going on.

Most likely, I think you are right that this is a bacterial bloom from a new tank chemical and biological imbalance. Filtration is good, but keep in mind that the biological portion of the filtration in your filters isn't very effective until the bacteria have colonized the filter.

Best of luck to you.

ClinicaTerra · 11-13-2010, 01:34 AM

Hey, Tim, thanks for the reply...

Before I get into your suggestions and thoughts...is that a fish tank in a TV wall unit that I see in your pics?! Are you still cycling fishless?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolymerTim

I'm with Amie on the gravel vac usage. I was never able to get it to work by shaking it up and down, even though I've seen video online of people doing it. Either somethings wrong with my technique, or it is easier with some vacs than others. The good news is that to get a siphon going you simply have to get most of the tubing filled with water at the same time, one way or another (assuming the outlet is lower than the level of the water in the tank). I use a similar technique as Amie where I kink the tubing and scoop water from the tank into the bell and let it flow down the tubing. Once the tubing is full of water, lower the bell back into the tank angled upwards so that the bell fills with water without pushing a massive air bubble into the tubing. Then release the kink and the siphon will start.

For us, as well, the up and down pumping NEVER worked with the Top Fin brand vac we had/have; all it did was push the fish around with too much water turbulence...

Quote:

As for cycling and cloudiness, it can take quite a while for the proper bacterial cultures to colonize and stabilize your tank. After a few months, I would've thought you'd be there, but many medications can disrupt bacterial colonies. Also, changing out your filter can set you back a bit. As for the Stability, effectiveness of instant-cycle type additives seems to be a bit sketchy at best. Sometimes they seem to work, but more often than not (based on customer reviews I've read) they don't. I think once you get the liquid test kit and get some numbers, we will have a better idea of what's going on.

Thanks for this; I too thought the cloudiness and haze would have been gone by now -- as I said, this tank has been running since the summer, at least...but we did do a Rid Ich treatment for awhile which as you said probably set things back, and now with the new AquaClear filter (although I truly would have thought this new filter would be doing something to help this problem...from owner's reviews I read on Amazon and other places, some people set the 110 up and saw clear water within hours and at the latest two days). At any rate, tomorrow is my last day of the Stability treatment, so after that, I'm not using it anymore -- it seems to have made my tank even cloudier, if that's even possible. If the Stability didn't kick start the cycle after first using it then breaking the routine, then using it again now and finishing the week out, I don't what to make of it.

I'll try and get that kit next week at some point and report back with some readings; would the results from the color-coded test strips be of any help to you in analyzing some of my parameters? I realize they come out in "Safe/Unsafe" kind of generalized results, but being that this is all I have to work with right now, I figured I would ask...

Quote:

Most likely, I think you are right that this is a bacterial bloom from a new tank chemical and biological imbalance. Filtration is good, but keep in mind that the biological portion of the filtration in your filters isn't very effective until the bacteria have colonized the filter.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks again -- but would a tank that's running since the summer months still be considered "new"?

snail · 11-13-2010, 04:27 AM

I find it takes 6 months for a tank to really settle down but I would have thought your tank should be cycled by now. When exaclty did you set it up? It could be that the meds messed up the cycle so it had to start again. If you post your ammonia and nitrite readings that would help others to know what is going on.

Could your gravel or another decorative item be causing cloudy water?

I'd also like to say welcome! And don't give up yet, you'll get there. You made a good start by getting a tank the right size for your fish, lots of people start with some thing like a 10 gallon with 5 goldfish, then it doesn't matter what advice you give it just isn't going to work. Your situation should be cureable.

J-Pond · 11-13-2010, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClinicaTerra

I am working on getting the drop kits from API (is this a good one?) -- so bear with me there. Second, I don't understand why you would be saying my filtration isn't enough -- I JUST bought this AquaClear 110 to supplement the Aqueon QuietFlow 55, and according to specs, the AquaClear 110 cycles 500 gallons (U.S.) per hour, the QuietFlow somewhere around 325 gallons per hour...is this still not enough for a 60-gallon?

How can I confuse Ich with wen growth spurt? Easy -- the spot on top of the fish's head looked like a small salt/rock formation that easily resembles the "spotting" that accompanies Ich, however, it didn't spread to anywhere else on its body, nor was it on the gills or fins, so it was a misdiagnosis on my part. Remember I specifically asked in my very first post to go easy on me because I am new? Regardless, if you would have read the post in detail, you would have seen where I mentioned that the misdiagnosis is behind me now, as that was some time back and the three fish are doing fine (apparently). I did a massive water change after the misdiagnosis to remove the Rid-Ich, but it did stain everything in the tank blue (as well as parts of our carpets from spillage).

The readings for the parameters, as I pointed out to the member before you, I can only provide via the strip test kit I have...I have to go out and get the API liquid based kit.

I appologize if I sounded hasrh in my first responce. The API test kit is very good IMO, it is what I use. Regarding the filters, I thought you swapped out filters and was only using one, sorry. As long as your getting at least 600gph you should be fine, if it's more great. I like the HOB w/Bio-Wheels I have 2 running in my 55.
As some one said earlier I would continue to do every other day changes until you levels are good then switch to weekly, doing 20% each week.
Again sorry if I sounded harsh, it was not ment that way.

Amie · 11-13-2010, 12:47 PM

Do your instructions for the test strips tell you what numbers are considered 'safe' or 'unsafe'??

For example, is there anything that tells you that the test will say safe if your ammonia is between 0 and 0.25 and will tell you 'unsafe' if between 0.50 and 1.00?? Anything like that written in the instructions?? At least that might narrow it down a little.

Amie · 11-13-2010, 12:52 PM

Also, I found this on you tube for you. It's a little video that illustrates the method I mentioned to get your gravel cleaner suction going:

YouTube - Aquarium Cleaning

PolymerTim · 11-13-2010, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClinicaTerra

Hey, Tim, thanks for the reply...

Before I get into your suggestions and thoughts...is that a fish tank in a TV wall unit that I see in your pics?! Are you still cycling fishless?

For us, as well, the up and down pumping NEVER worked with the Top Fin brand vac we had/have; all it did was push the fish around with too much water turbulence...

Thanks for this; I too thought the cloudiness and haze would have been gone by now -- as I said, this tank has been running since the summer, at least...but we did do a Rid Ich treatment for awhile which as you said probably set things back, and now with the new AquaClear filter (although I truly would have thought this new filter would be doing something to help this problem...from owner's reviews I read on Amazon and other places, some people set the 110 up and saw clear water within hours and at the latest two days). At any rate, tomorrow is my last day of the Stability treatment, so after that, I'm not using it anymore -- it seems to have made my tank even cloudier, if that's even possible. If the Stability didn't kick start the cycle after first using it then breaking the routine, then using it again now and finishing the week out, I don't what to make of it.

I'll try and get that kit next week at some point and report back with some readings; would the results from the color-coded test strips be of any help to you in analyzing some of my parameters? I realize they come out in "Safe/Unsafe" kind of generalized results, but being that this is all I have to work with right now, I figured I would ask...

Thanks again -- but would a tank that's running since the summer months still be considered "new"?

Ahh, thanks for reminding me that I need to update my old post. My tank is cycled and doing quite well now, but I haven't been active on the forum since it cycled. I just got back into reading posts a few days ago when they started emailing updates. My tank cycled literally overnight almost exactly a year ago after about 2 months from first adding ammonia. The fishless cycle worked beautifully, it just took me a little longer than I expected. I'd be happy to tell more about it if interested, but that is the short version. Until recently, I was very happy with 6 gold barbs, 6 julii corydoras catfish, a couple powder blue dwarf gouramis, and a snail; but recently I lost both mu gouramis to an unknown cause. I'm going to wait a couple months before trying to add anything back to make sure I'm stable.

You've got a point that your tank is not very new. If we speak more specifically abou cycling, then you should know that even an established tank can undergo what is often called a mini-cycle. The bacteria that process ammonia and nitrites will naturally form a balance in your tank if provided consistent conditions. Anything you do to substantially upset this balance can cause a mini-cycle. I usually hear of this happening when new fish are added or the colonies are physically removed (such as by changing out the filter pads) or killed off by meds. Changing out filter pads usually isn't so bad since the bacteria live on just about every surface in the tank, including gravel and a bio-wheel if you have one.

All that said, I will admit that I still consider myself a beginner aquarist, so I'm really just passing along tidbits I've learned along the way (mostly from a lot of online reading). Sounds like we're on the road to an answer and I look forward to learning the solution for your scenario.

ClinicaTerra · 11-14-2010, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snail

I find it takes 6 months for a tank to really settle down but I would have thought your tank should be cycled by now. When exaclty did you set it up? It could be that the meds messed up the cycle so it had to start again. If you post your ammonia and nitrite readings that would help others to know what is going on.

Thanks Snail,

I believe we have the tank for six months already; I believe we set it up over the summer, if I am not mistaken. Indeed, the Rid-Ich treatment could have messed up the cycle, but that's long over with, thankfully. As for the ammonia and nitrite readings, I don't yet have the API or another liquid-based test kit, so I'm working off of strips that only indicate "Safe/Unsafe" etc. and change color in response to that...

Quote:

Could your gravel or another decorative item be causing cloudy water?

I thought this all along -- but I just don't know. I bought all the ornaments at PetSmart, and they're all for aquariums (nothing from the backyard, etc!) and all were washed very well before putting them in the tank; regardless, they have been settling in this tank for months now...would they still be discharging residue to cloud the water?

Quote:

I'd also like to say welcome! And don't give up yet, you'll get there. You made a good start by getting a tank the right size for your fish, lots of people start with some thing like a 10 gallon with 5 goldfish, then it doesn't matter what advice you give it just isn't going to work. Your situation should be cureable.

Thanks for the welcome! I appreciate that! I should have made an initial post in the welcoming area...my apologies.

Indeed, I was aware of the goldfish and their requirements before I got into keeping them; I was actually into this hobby when I was younger and kept tropicals, but decided to go with fancy goldfish now because I just really like them. I knew they needed a lot of room, and I wasn't going to start the tank with like three huge ones right off...the three that are in there now are small to medium sized, and have been growing a bit since we got them. I hope the 60 gallon will keep them happy for awhile.

ClinicaTerra · 11-14-2010, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Pond

I appologize if I sounded hasrh in my first responce.

No problem -- I understand, and was just trying to explain why I confused the growth sign with the Ich...

Quote:

The API test kit is very good IMO, it is what I use.

Thanks. That's the one I'll be looking into then.

Quote:

Regarding the filters, I thought you swapped out filters and was only using one, sorry. As long as your getting at least 600gph you should be fine, if it's more great. I like the HOB w/Bio-Wheels I have 2 running in my 55.

Oh, well, then I would understand where the confusion came from -- indeed, that would seem underfiltered! No, I returned the smaller Aqueon and replaced with the AquaClear 110, so now we're running the large Aqueon QuietFlow 55 AND the AquaClear 110 (per my signature) together.

I considered the Marineland Biowheels (Penguin Series I think it was?) but after all the rave reviews I heard about the AquaClear, it was almost a shame not to get it...

Quote:

As some one said earlier I would continue to do every other day changes until you levels are good then switch to weekly, doing 20% each week.

Boy oh boy...water changes once a week? Jeez...that's tough...

Would I really need these many changes with two big filters like I'm running?

Quote:

Again sorry if I sounded harsh, it was not ment that way.

No problem -- sorry if I sounded the same in reply. I appreciate your honesty and sincerity.

ClinicaTerra · 11-14-2010, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amie

Do your instructions for the test strips tell you what numbers are considered 'safe' or 'unsafe'??

For example, is there anything that tells you that the test will say safe if your ammonia is between 0 and 0.25 and will tell you 'unsafe' if between 0.50 and 1.00?? Anything like that written in the instructions?? At least that might narrow it down a little.

No Amie, unfortunately not -- the strips turn certain colors in "boxes" indicating either Safe/Unsafe/Alkaline/Hard/Soft, etc...

11-12-2010, 12:01 AM	#1 (permalink)
ClinicaTerra Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 433 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 0 Times Said "Thanks" 6 Times Was Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank... Hello, Forum. First-time poster here, so please go slow and welcome me with some kid gloves! Here's the situation: We've been running a 60-gallon rectangular since I'd say the summer and have been, up until now, successfully keeping three fancytail goldies -- however, the way in which we arrived at the state we're in now, and how we set this tank up via unorthodox methods of cycling, etc. is a whole different discussion, which I'll get into, because it's kind of boggling to say the least... Upon setting up the tank months ago, we rinsed all the glass, gravel, ornaments and artificial planting, filled it with tap water, treated it with conditioner, and started running an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 filter plus two bubble walls for extra aeration. We let the tank run like this for some time, without adding Stability or any chemical to do a cycle -- I got the strip test kit from Jungle (I know not as good as the chemical kits, but...) and tested the water until everything came back in the "safe" zone, including ammonia. Then, we introduced two fancytails, one being a Red Cap Oranda (medium-small sized) and they both seemed to thrive. While the water began getting a little funky and settling into typical New Tank Syndrome cloudyness, we eventually waited and tested the water again, to where it was again "safe" and so we added a third fancytail in a gold and black color arrangement. Since that time, the tank has been ridiculously unstable in just so many ways -- we still have all three fish, and they appear to be doing well, but almost from the very beginning, our water has been horiffically cloudy and never got better...then, I thought one of the goldies came down with Ich, so we started treating with Kordon's Rid-Ich, which stained everything in the tank as well as our carpets from drips. On a recommendation from another site, I stopped the Rid-Ich (and subsequently the Stability routine I was doing) and began treating with heat and salt. When the heater we bought accidentally burned our carpets of our brand new house, I had enough of the heat method -- although that wasn't really what made me stop medicating. It seems the Ich turned out to be an apparent growth spurt sign on the goldfish's wen, and so the Ich was misdiagnosed amidst stained tank, carpet and other headaches. So, the Ich was not treated any longer, and I went ahead and added a second filter -- an Aqueon QuietFlow 20 -- just to supplement the larger 55 model on the other end of the tank. This seemed to prove to do nothing, as the water quality didn't improve, and I was told I was severely underfiltering my goldie tank. In the middle, we attempted water changes which turned out to be a DISASTER -- we were using the Top Fin gravel vac/syphon that we subsequently ended up returning because we couldn't get it to work after multiple tries and gallons of spilled water on our rugs; eventually, we kept one and attempted the water change again, only to be frustrated once more and heading towards the old fashioned vase-in-water removal of the water which was BACKBREAKING and TIME CONSUMING. When everything in our room was soaked with water, we gave up on water changes and gravel vacs. Still, the water is hazy (the Bacterial Bloom haze, not quite an Algae Bloom) and has never cleared -- just the other day, we went out and bought an AquaClear 110 filter and returned the small Aqueon for the 110 (I was advised this was the best HOB filter to buy and would be good with my other Aqueon for maximum filtration). I set up the 110 the correct way, with the sponge block, carbon and then biomax pellets in the media basket, but it has been running three days straight now and the water still isn't clear...also, I had started Stability all over again during this time, and I have about three more days to go to finish the treatment... Me and my wife are totally at our wits' end here with this whole thing; we're about two steps away from draining the tank and giving up. I realize it takes awhile for a tank to stabilize and cycle, thus clearing the water, but it just isn't happening no matter how much time passes. Plus, I also realize that goldfish are the hardest to keep in terms of clean tanks due to their waste and such, but why aren't TWO power filters clearing this water up? The water changes have been driving us nuts and we can't seem to get it right -- a python lead to a sink is out of the question in our house due to the location of the tank. Is there anyone that could assist with this ongoing cloudy water issue with our goldfish tank? Aside from the water changes, is there anything we can do to expedite the clean water arrival short of using one of those water cleaning chemicals (which I don't want to do)? Any insight would be greatly appreciated! __________________ FUJIMOTO 60-GALLON RECTANGULAR - BLACK OAK STAND & FULL CANOPY - AQUEON GLASS VERSA-TOP (24"X1) & FLUORESCENT LIGHT STRIP - MARINELAND PERFECTO GLASS CANOPY (24"X1) AQUEON QUIETFLOW 55 325GPH (1) - HAGEN AQUACLEAR A-620/110 500GPH (1) RENA AIR 400 (1) - TETRA WHISPER 60 AIR PUMP (1) - PETCO BUBBLE BARS (18"X2) RED CAP ORANDA (1) - CHOCOLATE/GOLD FANTAIL (1) - CALICO RYUKIN (1) - NEW! - ]RED/ORANGE RYUKIN (1) - NEW! Last edited by ClinicaTerra : 11-12-2010 at 07:28 PM.

11-12-2010, 01:49 AM	#2 (permalink)
HUMAN1ESS Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 102 Name: Chris Location: Baltimore Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 1 Times Said "Thanks" 30 Times Was Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Re: I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank... To vacuum my tank I use a hose and syphon water out of a window. The to add water I fill 5 gallon buckets. It's a little rough but it gets the job done, plus I usually only do 15 gallon changes a week. It was a little messy at first (spilled a little clean water on the carpets) but you get pretty good at it after a while. __________________ do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable.

11-12-2010, 12:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
susankat Pleco n bn breeder n BOSS susankat's Photo Gallery Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,420 Name: Susan Location: Tulsa, Ok Feedback: 9 / 100% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 4,151 Times Said "Thanks" 1,618 Times Was Thanked 1,809 Times in 1,549 Posts	Re: I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank... You need to keep up the water changes for the health of the fish. Being a new tank is one of the reasons for the bacterial bloom. It will eventually go away on its own if the water parameters are kept in check but will take time. Also how much lighting and for how long is it on? Can you give us the readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? You can also add seachem purigen to the filter to help clean up the cloudiness of the tank. It will come as a small bag or you can buy a larger amount in a bottle and you will need to put some into a filter bag that you can purchase at better lfs. Goldies needs lots of filtration as they are very messy, and also lots of water changes. If you keep your house warm during the colder months you really don't need a heater on a goldie tank. They like cooler water. __________________ SUCCESS IS MEASURED BY YEARS, NOT MONTHS!!! 220 Tank build http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/sta...late-3253.html

11-12-2010, 02:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
J-Pond Mr. Goldfish Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 383 Name: Johann Location: Gardner MA My location Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 165 Times Said "Thanks" 10 Times Was Thanked 84 Times in 76 Posts	Re: I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank... The first thing I notice is your filtration in not enough. With fancy goldfish the filtration should be 10x's the size of the tank. So for the 60gallon you should be running filters that give you 6oogph (gallons per hour). Second thing, thoses test strips are junk, you need to get the drop kits, I know there a bit more but they are worth it. The water changes are very important for goldies and you should be changing 20% per week. I use 5gallon buckets to do mine, I have 3 I set up the night before and 3 empty. I'm not sure how you could confuss ich and wen growth, If you could post a picture to show what you are talking about I may be able to help a bit more. Aslo please post you water parameters, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites, this will help to determine what is causing the cloudy water. __________________ *J-Pond* http://j-pond.myminicity.com/ please click on the egg/baby to help it grow:

11-12-2010, 05:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
Borgey Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 0 Times Said "Thanks" 0 Times Was Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank... First of all do yourself a favor and get rid of the Aqueon filter. They are completely GARBAGE. If you're not open to a canister filter I would at least have two 110s on that tank since that's the best H.O.B filter out in my experience. Like you already know Goldfish have a very large bio load and cloudy water is most likely from just a big bacterial bloom without enough biological filtration. I would either go get a good canister filter or at least another 110. Don't let this discourage you, it happens to the best of us. Once everything evens out it's fairly easy. But until then you really need to keep up on water changes at least every other day. Once you start seeing Nitrates and no Ammonia then once a week.

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11-12-2010, 09:21 PM	#9 (permalink)
Amie Amie's Photo Gallery Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 685 Name: Amie Richards Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 29 Times Said "Thanks" 96 Times Was Thanked 93 Times in 86 Posts	Re: I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank... How much food are you feeding the fish?? That seems to usually be the worst culprit for cloudy water. Try not feeding them for a few days. Fish can easily go 4 or 5 days without being fed. Although, I don't let them go more then 2 or 3. Feed them very little after the few days and watch them eat. If they can't eat it all in 2 minutes then they have too much. I found my gravel cleaner a little tricky too. The instructions said to put it in the tank and shake it up and down a few times. What a crock!!! I put the siphon part in the tank, fill it up with water, take it back out while turned upside down, close my thumb on the other end of the hose and just hold it like that- siphon in the air and hose down lower and the water in the siphon will flow down and fill up the hose, when hose is full put it back in the tank and take your thumb off the other end and viola you've got suction. __________________ 10gal fry tank planted with Wisteria, Java Moss, Anuabis and Anacharis 35gal Sponge Bob tank with live bearing tropicals (daughters tank) 15gal planted with Swords, Java Fern, Wisteria and Red Rubin housing 10 fry and 2 bladder snails 55 gal with Oscar (future planted tank with angels and flowerhorns) 55 gal Community tank (platys, mollys, guppys, glass catfish, angels, phantom tetra, red eye tetra and swordtails)

11-13-2010, 12:37 AM	#11 (permalink)
PolymerTim PolymerTim's Photo Gallery Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 116 My location Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 32 Times Said "Thanks" 0 Times Was Thanked 46 Times in 40 Posts	Re: I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank... I'm with Amie on the gravel vac usage. I was never able to get it to work by shaking it up and down, even though I've seen video online of people doing it. Either somethings wrong with my technique, or it is easier with some vacs than others. The good news is that to get a siphon going you simply have to get most of the tubing filled with water at the same time, one way or another (assuming the outlet is lower than the level of the water in the tank). I use a similar technique as Amie where I kink the tubing and scoop water from the tank into the bell and let it flow down the tubing. Once the tubing is full of water, lower the bell back into the tank angled upwards so that the bell fills with water without pushing a massive air bubble into the tubing. Then release the kink and the siphon will start. As for cycling and cloudiness, it can take quite a while for the proper bacterial cultures to colonize and stabilize your tank. After a few months, I would've thought you'd be there, but many medications can disrupt bacterial colonies. Also, changing out your filter can set you back a bit. As for the Stability, effectiveness of instant-cycle type additives seems to be a bit sketchy at best. Sometimes they seem to work, but more often than not (based on customer reviews I've read) they don't. I think once you get the liquid test kit and get some numbers, we will have a better idea of what's going on. Most likely, I think you are right that this is a bacterial bloom from a new tank chemical and biological imbalance. Filtration is good, but keep in mind that the biological portion of the filtration in your filters isn't very effective until the bacteria have colonized the filter. Best of luck to you.

11-13-2010, 04:27 AM	#13 (permalink)
snail snail's Photo Gallery Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,649 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 2,935 Times Said "Thanks" 364 Times Was Thanked 636 Times in 593 Posts	Re: I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank... I find it takes 6 months for a tank to really settle down but I would have thought your tank should be cycled by now. When exaclty did you set it up? It could be that the meds messed up the cycle so it had to start again. If you post your ammonia and nitrite readings that would help others to know what is going on. Could your gravel or another decorative item be causing cloudy water? I'd also like to say welcome! And don't give up yet, you'll get there. You made a good start by getting a tank the right size for your fish, lots of people start with some thing like a 10 gallon with 5 goldfish, then it doesn't matter what advice you give it just isn't going to work. Your situation should be cureable.

11-13-2010, 12:47 PM	#15 (permalink)
Amie Amie's Photo Gallery Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 685 Name: Amie Richards Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 29 Times Said "Thanks" 96 Times Was Thanked 93 Times in 86 Posts	Re: I'm Pretty Much at my Wits' End...Help with a 60-Gallon Fancytail Tank... Do your instructions for the test strips tell you what numbers are considered 'safe' or 'unsafe'?? For example, is there anything that tells you that the test will say safe if your ammonia is between 0 and 0.25 and will tell you 'unsafe' if between 0.50 and 1.00?? Anything like that written in the instructions?? At least that might narrow it down a little. __________________ 10gal fry tank planted with Wisteria, Java Moss, Anuabis and Anacharis 35gal Sponge Bob tank with live bearing tropicals (daughters tank) 15gal planted with Swords, Java Fern, Wisteria and Red Rubin housing 10 fry and 2 bladder snails 55 gal with Oscar (future planted tank with angels and flowerhorns) 55 gal Community tank (platys, mollys, guppys, glass catfish, angels, phantom tetra, red eye tetra and swordtails)

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