I started a 40 gallon tank and had it up and running for 4 weeks. I've been testing the water daily with API's Master kit and have been logging my info. But it got to a point where the ammonia was SO bad that I had 1 puffer die and my Ghost Knife started changing color. So I pulled all the fish and added them to a 10 gallon tank (it was all I had) I drained the 40 gallon 90% and restarted the tank. Cleaning the filter mesh everyday because the tank got so clouldy from restarting. Its been 2 weeks since the restart, the water is clear, pH is 6.8 temp is 77, Nitrites are 0 and Nitrates are 5.0 ppm. My issue is the ammonia, it still comes back GREEN. At first it was off the charts over 8ppm. Now it's at 4 but I cant get the damn thing to drop any. I've added Tetra's AmmoniaSafe, SafeStart (beneficial bacteria) I've used API Ammo-Carb, AmmoChips, NOTHING is lowering the ammonia. I've even started a 13gallon bucket with a powerhead in it, mixing tap water thats been conditioned with Tetras AquaSafe Plus, and doing 10g water changes.

At this point I'm open to any and all suggestions, as long as they are not, "drain and start over" If it comes to that I'm shutting it down.

First thing, STOP adding chemicals to reduce ammonia. The chemicals will cause your cycling process to delay and get some screwed up readings. If you have high ammonia, do a water change to reduce. STOP huge water changes and any major filter cleaning.

If the ammonia is at 4ppm, do daily 50% water change to get to 1ppm or below. The only thing you should be doing until the cycling process is over with, is water changes. Anything else will just upset the process again. Do a water change if ammonia or nitrites is higher than 1ppm. Otherwise, leave it.

How many fish total are in the or were in the tank? Sounds like you started with too many, or too big of waste producers.

I started the tank with a single Ghost Knife a week later added 2 Figure 8 puffers and then the following week added 2 Red Zebra Cichlids and 3 Mini crabs. After adding the 2 Zebras and 3 crabs the tank went south. I know I added too many fish too quick and thats why I got a spike. But I was keeping a close eye on the parameters and doing my weekly water changes.

At this point I have one crab back in the tank. I couldn't keep him in the 10 gallon with the other fish, he was nipping at there tails and fins. So I put him back in the 40g. I was also told by the LFS that when adding the AmmoSafe that it'll clear the water of ammonia but tests will still show until the filter does it's job. So should I not be over concerned with the readings just yet? Thanks for the help, Joe

I would advise you to read up on the Nitrogen cycle. My first tank, I made the same mistakes and I ended up killing so many fish by adding too many too soon to an unproperly cycled tank.

jrman is right, adding anything to reduce ammonia is not solving the problem, you need the bacteria to grow to break down the ammonia into Nitrite and then the Nitrite will get broken down into nitrates by other bacteria.

I'd say you are between a rock and a hard place. The best thing you can do if at all possible is to get some filter media from an established tank which has bacterial colonies in it. This is easier said than done but if you have any friends with aquariums you can perhaps get some from them or you can beg from your LFS. Even some gravel from an established aquarium will help. Obviously if you are going to do this make sure the tank you get it from is healthy or you could end up with disease problems - as I said you are between a rock and a hard place.

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If Ammo-safe is also your dechlor continue to use it, otherwise stop. You should keep doing water changes until you get ammonia levels down to 1ppm or below. After that you could add in maybe 2 of the fish you had in there.

Ammonia in a fish tank is the result of the decomposition of protein. You have no Nitrite reading, not posible during cycling. Make sure your Ammonia levels are correct by doing a backup test either with strips or taking a sample of your water to your TFS. None of the fish you have are tough enough for the cycling proccess, better are White Mountain Clouds or Danios. You should have plants in your tank, they help to temper ammonia levels. Make sure you have strong aeriation and filtration going on during cycling. Crabs and Brackish Water fishes (puffers) are particularly sensitive to Ammonia.

I'm running a AquaTop CF-300 canister system doing 264gph and I also have a Marineland powerhead that does 500gph so the tank has a great flow. I'll re-test in a few and post up the results. Thanks Joe

The final phase (where ammonia starts to drop) can take a little while to show. It is possible to never see a trace of nitrites for a cycle. I never did on one of mine.

Temp: 77
pH: 6.6
Ammonia: 4.0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 5.0

I read through and triple checked the instructions and I ran all tests correctly. So this is where my tank sits right now.

low ph, high ammonia.

Put some (6-10 bunches) of anacharis in there and stop adding the chemicals.

Betcha the ammonia comes down and the pH up. Nitrates could initially bump up as well but that is not dangerous.


my .02

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fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

I dont want a higher pH. I've been using API Proper pH 6.5. Was going to house Aspistogramma Cichlids in the tank and they require a lower pH. Pplus the LFS have a "neutral" system at 6.8.

IMHO don't "chase" pH with chemicals.

My planted tank all have a pH of 8.4-8.8 (api high range test kit) yet fish like neon tetras and silver hatchet fish reportedly "needing" a pH of under 7 thrive and live for years.

pH rises as co2 lowers. So to me a high pH because live plants have lowered co2 is not only not harmful to the fish but actually very healthy.

my .02

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fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

Your adding fish that are a poor choice to cycle with and adding fish that need a bigger tank than what you have, and your choice of fish won't do any good for apistos. As long as you have these fish your tank will never be right no matter what you try.

Never use ph up or down products as they will cause a lot of fluctuations in the ph when the fish would be more than happy with a more stable ph.

The puffers and the crabs need brackish water, and with figure 8 puffers you should only keep 1 to a 40 gal and they will kill your other fish and eat the crabs.

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The cichlids and the puffer hang out in the tank together. An not once have I seen the them attack one another. The pH has been steady at 6.6 since I started the tank and even the small 10g how is stead at 6.6 and it's been like that for 2 weeks. The Figure 8 puffer's only get to be a make size of 3in and the apisto's are max size at 3 1/2, so having them together in my 40 breeder is not going to be a problem. Once all is said and done I think I'm going to keep the 4 fish I have and simply add one more puffer like I had befor and call it a day.

I agree with Susan - the puffers need brackish water or they will eventually die. And, they will become aggressive towards other fish... they tend to be a 'one fish only' fish.

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Why is it you feel you need a ph value in that range? Your tanks sound like chemical cess pools. There is no need for any of them. You really should stop the ph product use. It will end up killing all of your fish if you don't watch it.

So you just have puffers, crabs and cichlids left? I still don't think the mix is going to work. I think you are going to need to decide which fish you like best. It might work okay for a while but it seems to me there will be problems/ incompatibility down the line.

I kept F8 puffers and loved them. They are not as aggressive (in fact they are surprisingly prone to getting bullied) as many puffers but do have special requirements. They do need brackish water especially as they get older. Water should be hard with a high PH. They need a meaty diet with a large amount hard shelled material, or their beaks will overgrow, eventually making it impossible for them to eat. That usually means having a 5 gallon tank set up just to breed snails. Being brackish water and messy they need plenty of tank room. You could keep 3 comfortably in your tank. Some have kept them with tank mates. Sailfin Mollies can work quite well. Monos or Archers are perfect but need a much bigger tank. I found it hard to find suitable brackish water tank mates for a 40 gal tank, they either took chunks out of their tank mates or got bulled by them, which the hate so I gave up in the end and had just puffers. The puffer forum has very good information just about puffers.
The Puffer Forum • The Puffer Library III. The Figure Eight Puffer; Colorful, Comical, Compact Fish

I don't know much about zebra cichlids. I know they need also need hard water with high PH but are not brackish water fish as far as I know. Most Cichlids become aggressive when sexually mature which isn't going to mix with the F8s
Red Zebra, Pseudotropheus estherae (original), Others: Metriaclima estherae, Maylandia estherae, Original: Pseudotropheus estherae

Are these the crabs you have?
Tropical Crabs for Freshwater Aquariums: Mini Crab They are brackish water but are not fully aquatic. They are great and entertaining in a setup made just for them. I don't think they will mix with the puffers either. The puffers will eat them if they are not too big, the will be in more danger after molting when the new shell is still soft. If they are too big to be eaten they will be a danger to the fish at night when they sleep.

The one crab I have left out of the three are from Petsmart. They are Red Claw Crabs. As mentioned before there tanks run on a "neutral" system with a pH of 6.8, kH 3 and temp of 77. As for info on the other fish I'm housing, I'm going off of LiveAquaria.com. So far my numbers are in range of each other to have all these fish live together. I did alot of reading on the Figure 8 puffers and found them to be the least aggresive out of the freshwatyer puffer family. They say the Green Spotted puffers are the ones to watch out for. I'll take the advice on the API Proper pH and stop dosing for the 6.5. As it stands, even the 10g tank had some added to that when started and it's been constant at 6.6.

I'm also going to continue with the daily water chnages untill I get the proper number back in line then return to weekly weater changes. Would adding a 3+ Moss balls do anything to help the tank? Not sure as to what plants I would add, thats why I ask.

Liveaquaria is known for misinformation so you need to look at other sources.They list Zebra danios as needing much larger housing than glofish,who are essentially zebra danios :/

Plants will help you,but with the chemicals I am not sure how they will fare.You can try it.If you want something that will suck up nutrients,if its legal in your state,Sunset hygro and wisteria will do great for that.

Wrongcrowd.com - Freshwater Red Clawed Crabs
This page has some info on red clawed crabs,which says you need almost half the salinity of saltwater for him.Also they are not tolerant of cycling tanks.

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I think the moss balls are a good idea.They are happy under almost any conditions, even light brackish. Plants are great to help keep a tank clean and stable. The plants you choose depends on the lighting, substrate etc you have. Plants only work in a tank if they are happy otherwise they just break down and add to the ammonia problems. Other easy plants that require nothing special would be java moss, java fern and anubias. Fast growing plants are the best for absorbing ammonia and other nutrients but most require more light so it would depend on the tank lighting you have.

It seems that F8 puffers are okay in fresh water when they are young so you might be okay for a couple of months but I don't think you can get around the fact that they are going to need brackish water and the cichlids don't.