Ok Im really diggin the Dirty tank idea right now. can I just go in my backyard and dig up some dirt and the awsome thing is about where I live i can dig about 3 ft. down and there's some natural undisturbed clay. I could go to a beach and fill up a couple of 5 gallon buckets with sand.

Seeing that the guys tank is already cycled would it be fine if i empty all of the water then put the the dirt/clay mix in put a little water in it to moisten it up then put the layer of sand on. Then put the gravel and stuff on. And seeing that my bedroom is right next to one of my hoses out side, I can have the hose come through the window and fill up the tank very, very, very slowly to a pretty much dribble state on to a plate like beaslbob suggested. So my hypothesis is that there should be close to nill cloudy water and no need to cycle right?

Unless you are using the same water and filter of the already cycled tank, you need to cycle the tank.

are you sure? I did the same thing with my 29 gallon when i went to go pick it up except i did not do the dirt and gravel thing

You don't need to use the same water but the same filter is important. If you're using the same filter though you could stock your tank to as full as it previously was. I suggest adding fish slowly though and testing the water to be safe.

I would test the water after a day or two before adding fish too. If the clay has any organic matter or has lots of nutrients in it your tank might have an ammonia spike.

I don't know if I would use sand from the beach though, might have a lot of salt in it. Sand is pretty cheap though. At home depot and lowes you can get a bag of playsand for less than 5$, but pool filter sand is finer and takes less rinsing and home depot carries a 50 lb bag for 8$ or less.

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i will check into that

but i dont live by the ocean i live near milwaukee by lake michigan no salt there. but would my idea work then?

I still wouldn't use beach sand... ever heard of sand lice? Not fun!

Just get some play sand from a hard ware store. It's super cheap!

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Sand Lice? Sounds like fleas for fish. lol ok i will see if i can get a couple bags of sand. how much would be good for a 48 X 21 X 13.

Ok, I will put the dirt/clay mix at the bottom then the sand then the gravel. When the tank is full of water do i turn on the filter or leave it off? Plus my parents said that i cant order the plants till next week. The particles should settle by then.

Well If you anyone here has the time to help me aqua scape my tank. I have no idea how big or how fast these plants grow. So if anyone could draw me a picture in Microsoft paint of where to put my plants I would humongously appreciate it! my tank is 48 inches long and 13inches deep. well here is the hopeful plants I want to get.

2x Hornwort (Ceratophyllum Demersum) size:?
1x Hygrophila Angustifolia size: ?
1x Wisteria (Hygrophila Difformis) size:?
2x Anacharis (Egeria Densa) size: 8"
1x Vallisneria Asiatica Var. Biwaensis (Corkscrew Val) size: 12"
2x Echinodorus Bleheri (Amazon Sword) SM Size: 6"
1x Java Moss (Vesicularia Dubyana) size: 4 oz. cup
1x Fontinalis Antipyretica (Willow Moss) Portion size: 4 oz. cup
2x Malaysian Driftwood size:10"-15"
2x Vallisneria Gigantea Marmor ( Red Jungle Val) size: bare root

Also I have some rocks to would like to put in my tank. For the red Jungle Val what does it mean by bare root? Oh, plus i have 2 plecos, one common and one 1" albino bn pleco. So I need to know if these plants wont get damaged from them.

Also how thick does the dirt/clay layer need to be?

The common pleco will probably damage most of the plants and the bristlenose might eat your sword plant.

I agree - I'd definitely lose the common pleco. If you go about this in the right way, there's no need to cycle the tank. The plants will take care of that. My 90 gallon has a dirt/sand substrate, and I've never seen a trace of ammonia. You'd be well advised to do a little research on Diana Walstad's method of setting up a planted tank, or check out Beaslbob's method. Take your time and do your research and you won't run into any serious problems.

ok well i just got done digging a 4 ft. hole to clay. Well you'd expect it to be nice today but no it has to pouring out. So yeah im soaking wet right now. But hey I needed the dirt/clay. I have done my my fare share of researching these plants now. So how long does it take for the sediment from the sand and dirt take to settle before i am able to move my fish in?

also which is better willow moss or java moss?

There's no cut-and-dried answer to that one. It depends on what kind of filtration you're using (if any) and how mucked-up the water gets. As soon as your tank is planted and the water clears, you can add fish. If it's overly cloudy, just drain and replace the water. I waited a couple of weeks before adding a few fish, but only because I've had trouble finding rainbowfish that looked good. (I'm still having trouble finding any good ones locally) BTW - you don't need clay - topsoil works just fine. I used cheap potting soil.

Whatever natural dirt you use, I would recommend mineralizing it first. It's a way to remove most of the organic compounds so you won't have an ammonia spike. Here's a link to a thread on the mineralizing process, or you can Google "mineralized topsoil"

How-To: Mineralized Soil Substrate, by Aaron Talbot - Library - Aquatic Plant Central

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If you're not going to re-use the gravel that was already in the tank, the tank will start the cycle over again. There is NO way to avoid the nitrogen cycle taking place - the tank will cycle whether you want it to or not. There are a few methods to go about it and some are easier than others, but you cannot escape it. Plants help deal with the issues normally seen during a cycle, but the tank still goes through it. Stock too fast and the plants won't matter much. Ammonia levels can kill in any tank.

Good points Ben - I don't think I made myself clear. The key is lots of fast-growing plants and light stocking at first. The plants have to be able to keep up with the bioload. Patience is a virtue regardless of method.

Yeh im using the gravel from my it but he says theres black algae. How does one kill black algae becuase i have been doing research and it says nothing eats it? I do have algaecide will that kill it. I got it from the person when i got my 29. I never used it.

can convict cichlids go with my fish? because thats what he has

Subsoil (the soil under topsoil; like your clay) shouldn't normally have much nitrogen/organic matter in it so it probably won't cause an ammonia spike. Put in your clay, then sand (if you're using some), and finally gravel before filling the tank. When you fill it, fill it very slow and use something like a plate to deflect the current. Beaslebob and other people recommended that to me and it kept my water from getting cloudy.

I would try to get all the black algae off the gravel before putting it in. Try scrubbing it off.

I don't know anything about convict cichlids but most cichlids are aggressive.

I wouldn't put convicts in with community fish.

You could always just keep your lights off for the first week or two and starve the algae. Or you could go extreme and do a complete blackout (before adding plants) using black garbage bags and no light.

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yeh i was thinking the same thing

could i just bleach all of his gravel?