Can Someone Tell Me What is Going On Here?

ClinicaTerra · 09-09-2011, 12:32 AM

Okay. I think I'm nearing my absolute breaking point with this issue.

Tonight, I tried taking apart the tubing from my Rena 400 pump that was feeding two Petco 18" bubble bars (the Rena's dual outputs were "bridged" so that both outlets were combined to feed one line out) which themselves were connected together as the instructions said they could be...

I attempted to run one air line to one bar, and the other to the other bar (both lines coming out of the Rena), but when I did that, the bubbles seemed to be "robbed" from the left side bar and not too many were coming out of the right...so, I went back and did the bridged thing again, whereby I connected both bars together and fed them one summed air stream from the Rena's dual outputs (using the "Y" adapter). When I did this, the left side bar began cascading powerfully, as it did before, but now, the left bar won't even put out any air -- occasionally, it burps a couple of bubbles, but that's it...

What is going on here? Did I connect the bars incorrectly? Is this bar on the right just a bad one that I should return? Is this a problem with the Rena pump? I understand that there will be a bit of "loss" when you separate the two outputs on the pump to power two different stones or ornaments (in my case, the bubble bars) but why were just "strands" of bubbles coming from the one on the right when I did that?

Me and my wife are thinking at this point that we need to return the right bar for a new one and buy a second Rena (or another pump) and bridge that one to feed another new bar, as the one on the left is being powered right now...

Any suggestions, anyone?

susankat · 09-09-2011, 01:08 AM

That might work, look at kensfish.com and go into the link for airsupplies you might get some different ideas and might even look into the kind of pumps that I gave you links for. I'm running 40 sponge filters off that one pump of mine, with no loss in air pressure.

ClinicaTerra · 09-09-2011, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susankat

That might work, look at kensfish.com and go into the link for airsupplies you might get some different ideas and might even look into the kind of pumps that I gave you links for. I'm running 40 sponge filters off that one pump of mine, with no loss in air pressure.

Thanks Susan.

Can one of these commerical sized pumps be set up to run one airline direct to a single bubble ornament, like the bars?

susankat · 09-09-2011, 10:24 PM

Should be able to, they do have some smaller ones that has one outlet, but not as strong airflow as mine.

ClinicaTerra · 09-10-2011, 12:17 AM

Well I meant are there commerically sized pumps like that which could be connected to standard plastic airline tubing...

AliceInDallas · 09-10-2011, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClinicaTerra

..... What is going on here? Did I connect the bars incorrectly? Is this bar on the right just a bad one that I should return?

For what it's worth, I have had the experience of buying a bad bubble wand, and also an experience of THINKING that I had bought a bad one but that was not the problem. Two different situations:

1. First situation (not particularly interesting, but it could be your problem): I bought two 12 inch pale blue or turquoise bubble wands, at the same time as I bought a new dual-output AirPod. One of the bubble wands was great, but the other was simply a dud - it just didn't allow air to pass through correctly. I figured that out when I tried putting the tube into the water without the bubble wand connected, just to check for air output ..... got lots of output, so I figured it must be the wand. I bought a new bubble bar, and wow! The whole back of the tank was a wall of tiny bubbles coming from the two wands. So yes, even straight out of the package, wands can be faulty.

2. Second situation (far more interesting): I re-did the tubing and the bubble hardware attached to a powerful dual-output AirPod, for my 90 gallon tank. One of the bubble wands worked great, but the other one just burped big bubbles, sluggishly, every second or so. So I replaced the sluggish bubble wand, and I still got no action! It looked like I had another dud ... either that, or my AirPod had lost the ability to do dual output, or something similar.

FINALLY, I figured out that the problem was the backflow-preventer valve on the sluggish side. The bubble wand with the great stream of fine bubbles was fitted with a slightly more expensive backflow-preventer valve that came with another piece of equipment (it happened to be a red valve). And the wand with the sluggish big-bubble-burp was fitted with an INEXPENSIVE blue backflow-preventer valve that I bought off the shelf, a very basic brand. That was the problem! The backflow valve.

I looked around until I found a slightly more expensive backflow valve for the sluggish side, and put the original bubble wand (that I thought was bad) back onto the line, and, zowie! I had a curtain of fine bubbles out of both wands. So based upon that experience, I don't buy inexpensive backflow valves now. Go for the best. It might cost you a whole dollar more! But what a difference that little gizmo can make.

I have ALSO discovered that it is a BAD idea to use a single backflow valve when you are bridging two air streams which eventually split into two lines. For some reason, it cuts down on the power of the air stream. When you bridge and then split the line, use two valves .... one for each wand ... and make sure that they are the best valves you can buy, made by a good high-tech company.

Cheers! AliceInDallas

majerah1 · 09-10-2011, 08:23 AM

I had an air pump that had two outlets and when I tried to run it to two different things,one got more air than the other.I used the shut off valves,one on each line to adjust the flow to them both.When i would turn one down,the other got more air.It took alot of fine tuning to get it right but it was a simple cheap fix.

ClinicaTerra · 09-12-2011, 12:36 PM

Hello Alice,

Thank you for your thorough reply and insight; I will address your individual points...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliceInDallas

For what it's worth, I have had the experience of buying a bad bubble wand, and also an experience of THINKING that I had bought a bad one but that was not the problem. Two different situations:

1. First situation (not particularly interesting, but it could be your problem): I bought two 12 inch pale blue or turquoise bubble wands, at the same time as I bought a new dual-output AirPod.

Were these pale blue or turquoise wands the flexible, bendable type? If so, you may have bought the Marineland ones I did prior to the Petco bars I have now.

Quote:

One of the bubble wands was great, but the other was simply a dud - it just didn't allow air to pass through correctly.

This ALWAYS seems to be the problem when I purchase dual wands...

Quote:

I figured that out when I tried putting the tube into the water without the bubble wand connected, just to check for air output ..... got lots of output, so I figured it must be the wand. I bought a new bubble bar, and wow! The whole back of the tank was a wall of tiny bubbles coming from the two wands. So yes, even straight out of the package, wands can be faulty.

Well, good to know that they can be faulty out of the gate -- I think I may have simply purchased a bar that wasn't working right, or one with a tear or leak somewhere.

Quote:

2. Second situation (far more interesting): I re-did the tubing and the bubble hardware attached to a powerful dual-output AirPod, for my 90 gallon tank. One of the bubble wands worked great, but the other one just burped big bubbles, sluggishly, every second or so. So I replaced the sluggish bubble wand, and I still got no action! It looked like I had another dud ... either that, or my AirPod had lost the ability to do dual output, or something similar.

FINALLY, I figured out that the problem was the backflow-preventer valve on the sluggish side. The bubble wand with the great stream of fine bubbles was fitted with a slightly more expensive backflow-preventer valve that came with another piece of equipment (it happened to be a red valve). And the wand with the sluggish big-bubble-burp was fitted with an INEXPENSIVE blue backflow-preventer valve that I bought off the shelf, a very basic brand. That was the problem! The backflow valve.

I looked around until I found a slightly more expensive backflow valve for the sluggish side, and put the original bubble wand (that I thought was bad) back onto the line, and, zowie! I had a curtain of fine bubbles out of both wands. So based upon that experience, I don't buy inexpensive backflow valves now. Go for the best. It might cost you a whole dollar more! But what a difference that little gizmo can make.

I have ALSO discovered that it is a BAD idea to use a single backflow valve when you are bridging two air streams which eventually split into two lines. For some reason, it cuts down on the power of the air stream. When you bridge and then split the line, use two valves .... one for each wand ... and make sure that they are the best valves you can buy, made by a good high-tech company.

Cheers! AliceInDallas

When you say "backflow valve," are you referring to the "check valve" that's recommended to use? If so, I'm not using one -- let me explain my setup a bit better because I think I many not be explaining it all that well...

My Rena Air 400 pump has dual outlets. I am running two small strips of tubing from each of the outlets, connected to a "Y" splitter piece, which then has one run of tubing going to the connector of the bubble bar. A second bubble bar is attached to that bar, which I achieved by removing an end cap from the first bar and just pushing them together; I hope this was the correct way of connecting them, but...

At any rate, that one airline is feeding both bars, but I have the tubing set up at the pump so that both outlets are "bridged" to provide power from both of them to feed one airline run to the bars in the tank...

Am I going about this wrong? Should I get a second pump to power the other bar instead of both bars feeding off the one pump?

ClinicaTerra · 09-12-2011, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majerah1

I had an air pump that had two outlets and when I tried to run it to two different things,one got more air than the other.

THAT'S exactly what happened when I tried to run two separate airlines to the two separate bubble bars from this Rena pump -- I don't understand why, because supposedly these dual output pumps are SUPPOSED to be able to power multiple devices (and that's with both outputs turned all the way open for max output).

But I'm not certain if it's a faulty bubble bar, or the pump itself not being able to power two devices off the two outlets...

Quote:

I used the shut off valves,one on each line to adjust the flow to them both.When i would turn one down,the other got more air.It took alot of fine tuning to get it right but it was a simple cheap fix.

What do you mean by "shut off valves"...are you referring to the "check valves" to be installed in the airline so there's no syphon issues, or are you talking about those "gang valves" that control the air flow? If you mean a gang valve, are you suggesting all I may need to do is get one of these to regulate the air from this one pump, even though the pump has its own air flow control knobs?

AliceInDallas · 09-12-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClinicaTerra

At any rate, that one airline is feeding both bars, but I have the tubing set up at the pump so that both outlets are "bridged" to provide power from both of them to feed one airline run to the bars in the tank...

Am I going about this wrong? Should I get a second pump to power the other bar instead of both bars feeding off the one pump?

Thanks for better explaining the setup. Understood now.

One thing to consider, if you have not already done this: Instead of connecting the bubble bars, have you tried running them separately, each off of a separate air output line with their own air tubes? In general, when I have connected two flexible bubble bars using the 'remove the end cap and connect' method, the second bar never seems to have the same air power as the first bar on the air tube. For whatever reason, connecting the two bars seems to reduce the air flow when the air passes from bar 1 to bar 2. As to why that might be .... is the connecting joint between the two bars inherently causing a reduction of air flow to bar 2, once you leave bar 1? [This same phenomenon happens when I am setting up drip irrigation systems -- the more drip stations I add, the weaker the water flow becomes toward the end .... although the water coming out of the first few drip stations seems to remain strong.]

You might go back and try running the two bars separately off of completely separate air lines (using just the one pump with two air output spigots, with an air tube and a bubble bar connected to each spigot). Obviously, before you try this, you first need to be sure that both bars are fully and equally functional. Maybe test each one, one at a time, on the same air output line .... just to make sure that they are equally functional. Then attach them to the separate air tubes, and see what happens. Beyond that I don't have a clue.

majerah1 · 09-12-2011, 04:02 PM

Sorry its some of these:Google Images

I have one on each line I used,in order to control it better.

Never seen the kind with the built in control valve so I dont know how reliable those would be.

ClinicaTerra · 09-12-2011, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliceInDallas

Thanks for better explaining the setup. Understood now.

One thing to consider, if you have not already done this: Instead of connecting the bubble bars, have you tried running them separately, each off of a separate air output line with their own air tubes? In general, when I have connected two flexible bubble bars using the 'remove the end cap and connect' method, the second bar never seems to have the same air power as the first bar on the air tube. For whatever reason, connecting the two bars seems to reduce the air flow when the air passes from bar 1 to bar 2. As to why that might be .... is the connecting joint between the two bars inherently causing a reduction of air flow to bar 2, once you leave bar 1? [This same phenomenon happens when I am setting up drip irrigation systems -- the more drip stations I add, the weaker the water flow becomes toward the end .... although the water coming out of the first few drip stations seems to remain strong.]

You might go back and try running the two bars separately off of completely separate air lines (using just the one pump with two air output spigots, with an air tube and a bubble bar connected to each spigot). Obviously, before you try this, you first need to be sure that both bars are fully and equally functional. Maybe test each one, one at a time, on the same air output line .... just to make sure that they are equally functional. Then attach them to the separate air tubes, and see what happens. Beyond that I don't have a clue.

Please see my initial post in this thread -- I did exactly that first, running the two bars off two separate air lines from this pump...

Here's where I mentioned it:

Quote:

I attempted to run one air line to one bar, and the other to the other bar (both lines coming out of the Rena), but when I did that, the bubbles seemed to be "robbed" from the left side bar and not too many were coming out of the right...so, I went back and did the bridged thing again, whereby I connected both bars together and fed them one summed air stream from the Rena's dual outputs (using the "Y" adapter). When I did this, the left side bar began cascading powerfully, as it did before, but now, the left bar won't even put out any air -- occasionally, it burps a couple of bubbles, but that's it...

ClinicaTerra · 09-12-2011, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majerah1

Sorry its some of these:Google Images

I have one on each line I used,in order to control it better.

Never seen the kind with the built in control valve so I dont know how reliable those would be.

That link didn't take me anywhere...

AliceInDallas · 09-13-2011, 12:37 AM

I had suggested, 'maybe test each one, one at a time, on the same air output line .... just to make sure that they are equally functional. Then attach them to the .... air tubes'. I am assuming that you did that too? Best of luck on solving this one. It seems that you have tried everything!

joevw007 · 09-13-2011, 02:42 PM

I have a dual output with 2 18" bubble walls (green and probably the same ones) and I use a 20 - 60 gallon Aqua Culture pump it was only like $15 and it powers both bubble walls all the way across. sounds to me like its your air pump that just cant make enough pressure to push the water all the way out of the tubes. if the bubble walls are the green foam-like tubes such as mine you could go to the hardware store, get shrink wrap, pop off the ends of the bubble walls that dont have the nipple for the air line and shrink wrap them together. then youll have a 36" wall with a nipple on both ends so the pressure should be distributed more evenly. hope this helps!

ClinicaTerra · 09-13-2011, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliceInDallas

I had suggested, 'maybe test each one, one at a time, on the same air output line .... just to make sure that they are equally functional. Then attach them to the .... air tubes'. I am assuming that you did that too? Best of luck on solving this one. It seems that you have tried everything!

Oh -- I hadn't seen that you suggested testing each one individually; I thought you meant simply run an air tube to each bar, to be powered by the individual outputs of the pump (which I initially did)...

For whatever it's worth, I was replying to this comment by you:

One thing to consider, if you have not already done this: Instead of connecting the bubble bars, have you tried running them separately, each off of a separate air output line with their own air tubes?

...which suggested to me that you were referring to running each bubble bar with its own air tube line to each of the pump's outputs...

ClinicaTerra · 09-13-2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joevw007

I have a dual output with 2 18" bubble walls (green and probably the same ones)

I used to have the green "Top Fin" (Petsmart's house brand) bubble wands that attached to suction cups to the back of the glass, and those busted...then I got a 48" Marineland flexible wand, which was an aqua blue kind of color...now, I have two Petco brand bubble "bars" which are encased in black plastic and have substantial looking bases...

Quote:

and I use a 20 - 60 gallon Aqua Culture pump it was only like $15 and it powers both bubble walls all the way across.

How big is your tank? I tried using a Tetra Whisper 60 initially, but that seemed to break or stop working after a couple of months (I have a 60 gallon). Since then, I tried both Top Fin's best pump (a noisy waste of money) and another Tetra Whisper 100, both which took dumps on me, and now I have a Rena Air 400...I was told and read that the Rena is a much more premium pump; I never heard of Aqua Culture but will look into it...

For $15, I would have been skeptical, if only because I have been buying $50 and up pumps that don't seem to last...

Quote:

sounds to me like its your air pump that just cant make enough pressure to push the water all the way out of the tubes.

But how can that be? The pumps I have been buying have been rated for tanks sometimes three times larger than mine; and this could happen with all of them?

Quote:

if the bubble walls are the green foam-like tubes such as mine you could go to the hardware store, get shrink wrap, pop off the ends of the bubble walls that dont have the nipple for the air line and shrink wrap them together. then youll have a 36" wall with a nipple on both ends so the pressure should be distributed more evenly. hope this helps!

Unfortunately, the bubble bars I have now are made of a different material; please see them here and tell me what you think:

Amazon.com: PETCO 18" Bubble Bar for Fresh and Saltwater Aquariums: Pet Supplies

I have two of these 18" bars, a recommendation by our very own Susankat...

09-09-2011, 12:32 AM	#1 (permalink)
ClinicaTerra Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 433 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 0 Times Said "Thanks" 6 Times Was Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Can Someone Tell Me What is Going On Here? Okay. I think I'm nearing my absolute breaking point with this issue. Tonight, I tried taking apart the tubing from my Rena 400 pump that was feeding two Petco 18" bubble bars (the Rena's dual outputs were "bridged" so that both outlets were combined to feed one line out) which themselves were connected together as the instructions said they could be... I attempted to run one air line to one bar, and the other to the other bar (both lines coming out of the Rena), but when I did that, the bubbles seemed to be "robbed" from the left side bar and not too many were coming out of the right...so, I went back and did the bridged thing again, whereby I connected both bars together and fed them one summed air stream from the Rena's dual outputs (using the "Y" adapter). When I did this, the left side bar began cascading powerfully, as it did before, but now, the left bar won't even put out any air -- occasionally, it burps a couple of bubbles, but that's it... What is going on here? Did I connect the bars incorrectly? Is this bar on the right just a bad one that I should return? Is this a problem with the Rena pump? I understand that there will be a bit of "loss" when you separate the two outputs on the pump to power two different stones or ornaments (in my case, the bubble bars) but why were just "strands" of bubbles coming from the one on the right when I did that? Me and my wife are thinking at this point that we need to return the right bar for a new one and buy a second Rena (or another pump) and bridge that one to feed another new bar, as the one on the left is being powered right now... Any suggestions, anyone? __________________ FUJIMOTO 60-GALLON RECTANGULAR - BLACK OAK STAND & FULL CANOPY - AQUEON GLASS VERSA-TOP (24"X1) & FLUORESCENT LIGHT STRIP - MARINELAND PERFECTO GLASS CANOPY (24"X1) AQUEON QUIETFLOW 55 325GPH (1) - HAGEN AQUACLEAR A-620/110 500GPH (1) RENA AIR 400 (1) - TETRA WHISPER 60 AIR PUMP (1) - PETCO BUBBLE BARS (18"X2) RED CAP ORANDA (1) - CHOCOLATE/GOLD FANTAIL (1) - CALICO RYUKIN (1) - NEW! - ]RED/ORANGE RYUKIN (1) - NEW!

09-09-2011, 01:08 AM	#2 (permalink)
susankat Pleco n bn breeder n BOSS susankat's Photo Gallery Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,415 Name: Susan Location: Tulsa, Ok Feedback: 9 / 100% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 2,082 Times Said "Thanks" 1,610 Times Was Thanked 1,807 Times in 1,548 Posts	Re: Can Someone Tell Me What is Going On Here? That might work, look at kensfish.com and go into the link for airsupplies you might get some different ideas and might even look into the kind of pumps that I gave you links for. I'm running 40 sponge filters off that one pump of mine, with no loss in air pressure. __________________ SUCCESS IS MEASURED BY YEARS, NOT MONTHS!!! 220 Tank build http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/sta...late-3253.html

09-09-2011, 10:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
susankat Pleco n bn breeder n BOSS susankat's Photo Gallery Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 5,415 Name: Susan Location: Tulsa, Ok Feedback: 9 / 100% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 2,082 Times Said "Thanks" 1,610 Times Was Thanked 1,807 Times in 1,548 Posts	Re: Can Someone Tell Me What is Going On Here? Should be able to, they do have some smaller ones that has one outlet, but not as strong airflow as mine. __________________ SUCCESS IS MEASURED BY YEARS, NOT MONTHS!!! 220 Tank build http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/sta...late-3253.html

09-10-2011, 12:17 AM	#5 (permalink)
ClinicaTerra Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 433 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 0 Times Said "Thanks" 6 Times Was Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Can Someone Tell Me What is Going On Here? Well I meant are there commerically sized pumps like that which could be connected to standard plastic airline tubing... __________________ FUJIMOTO 60-GALLON RECTANGULAR - BLACK OAK STAND & FULL CANOPY - AQUEON GLASS VERSA-TOP (24"X1) & FLUORESCENT LIGHT STRIP - MARINELAND PERFECTO GLASS CANOPY (24"X1) AQUEON QUIETFLOW 55 325GPH (1) - HAGEN AQUACLEAR A-620/110 500GPH (1) RENA AIR 400 (1) - TETRA WHISPER 60 AIR PUMP (1) - PETCO BUBBLE BARS (18"X2) RED CAP ORANDA (1) - CHOCOLATE/GOLD FANTAIL (1) - CALICO RYUKIN (1) - NEW! - ]RED/ORANGE RYUKIN (1) - NEW!

09-10-2011, 08:23 AM	#7 (permalink)
majerah1 Wild betta tamer majerah1's Photo Gallery Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 4,292 Name: Beverly D Fincannon Location: Easley,SC My location Feedback: 13 / 100% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 962 Times Said "Thanks" 546 Times Was Thanked 1,126 Times in 1,011 Posts	Re: Can Someone Tell Me What is Going On Here? I had an air pump that had two outlets and when I tried to run it to two different things,one got more air than the other.I used the shut off valves,one on each line to adjust the flow to them both.When i would turn one down,the other got more air.It took alot of fine tuning to get it right but it was a simple cheap fix. __________________ http://bountifulbettas.blogspot.com/ "Come to the dark side....we have cookies...and filters/heaters/and water changes!"

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09-12-2011, 04:02 PM	#11 (permalink)
majerah1 Wild betta tamer majerah1's Photo Gallery Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 4,292 Name: Beverly D Fincannon Location: Easley,SC My location Feedback: 13 / 100% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 962 Times Said "Thanks" 546 Times Was Thanked 1,126 Times in 1,011 Posts	Re: Can Someone Tell Me What is Going On Here? Sorry its some of these:Google Images I have one on each line I used,in order to control it better. Never seen the kind with the built in control valve so I dont know how reliable those would be. __________________ http://bountifulbettas.blogspot.com/ "Come to the dark side....we have cookies...and filters/heaters/and water changes!"

09-13-2011, 12:37 AM	#14 (permalink)
AliceInDallas Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 30 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 2 Times Said "Thanks" 24 Times Was Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts	Re: Can Someone Tell Me What is Going On Here? I had suggested, 'maybe test each one, one at a time, on the same air output line .... just to make sure that they are equally functional. Then attach them to the .... air tubes'. I am assuming that you did that too? Best of luck on solving this one. It seems that you have tried everything!

09-13-2011, 02:42 PM	#15 (permalink)
joevw007 who... me? Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 239 Name: Joe Hemler Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Welcome to Aquarium Forum" 13 Times Said "Thanks" 28 Times Was Thanked 30 Times in 30 Posts	Re: Can Someone Tell Me What is Going On Here? I have a dual output with 2 18" bubble walls (green and probably the same ones) and I use a 20 - 60 gallon Aqua Culture pump it was only like $15 and it powers both bubble walls all the way across. sounds to me like its your air pump that just cant make enough pressure to push the water all the way out of the tubes. if the bubble walls are the green foam-like tubes such as mine you could go to the hardware store, get shrink wrap, pop off the ends of the bubble walls that dont have the nipple for the air line and shrink wrap them together. then youll have a 36" wall with a nipple on both ends so the pressure should be distributed more evenly. hope this helps!

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