Ok so I have a 29 gallon tank with some live plants, my substrate is gravel. My plants are jungle val, bulyx japonica and chain sword. I have a bag of flourite and I was thinking I would sprinkle some over the top of my existing gravel. I already have the plants in the tank and most of then have rooted pretty well, thve been in there for about 2 months, so I dont want to mess with them and re plant them. Do you think adding the flourite on top of the gravel will help? I'm thinking it would be a layer about 1/4 inch thich. I have 2 24 inch 65k t12 bulbs and I add some kents iron and magnese with my weekly water change. I do not add any co2 but plan on add diy co2 soon. I do run a HOB filter, lights and a heater thats it.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but flourite is for roots. It's a clay based substrate that is initially packed with nutrients (and also absorbs nutrients from your water for later use by the root systems). Putting it on top of your gravel up out of the reach of the roots is a waste of time and money.

If you want the benefit of the better substrate, you have to put it under your gravel, or mix it into your gravel. Those are your options. You can't put it on top of your gravel and derive any benefit. It is also very dusty substrate, which is why many people layer it on the bottom of the tank and cover it with gravel. Putting it onto the top of your substrate is going to foul your water quite a bit, even if you go to the extreme of rinsing it for a couple hours (removing a lot of the benefit of the flourite by washing away so much of its nutrients). You'll end up having to clean out your filters very soon because the dust from the flourite is going to clog them up pretty fast.

Pre-mix your flourite with gravel and add it to the tank carefully, or start over and layer it below a top gravel layer, or just don't use it.

If you want to use it and need to know how to add it to your water without creating a ton of dust in the water column, let me know and I can help. Do not just dump it in your water!

Oh man that is bad news. Ok I think I will take out some of my gravel and mix in the Flourite then re plant the plants.

So whats the trick? "If you want to use it and need to know how to add it to your water without creating a ton of dust in the water column, let me know and I can help. Do not just dump it in your water!"
Thanks for the help!

you might want to check out this thread:

my (beaslbob build) methods

And modify to suit your purposes.

the pc select I use for top layer is also a baked clay. So was thinking of you.

Bob

__________________
fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

So are you sugesting that I do add the Flourite over the top of gravel? I've read your beaslbob methods thread before but I dont want to tear my tank down, I'd rather just add some stuff to it. If I did tear the tank down I'd remove the plate from the undergravel filter I am no longer using so it would be a good idea but its just too much.

I think you could just add the flourite over your existing. It wouldn't hurt anything to try.

It could be a little cloudy for a few days though. In my tanks with no filters or circulation I used to just pour the water in and then add plants. and the tank was very cloudy for a couple of days. But all the stirred up stuff settled down resulting in a clear tank. but at first I couldn't see 1/4" into the tank.

My .02

__________________
fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

I think the best you can do is maybe remove half of your existing gravel, add the flourite, then mix. It is usually a bottom mix. Or return it and do the same with Eco complete. It doesn't even require rinsing. Flourite you'll need to rinse, rinse and when you think you're done rinse again.

flourite is a MESS!!! Adding it to a tank full of water, is going to cloud the tank for a week.


that said. I *pushed* the gravel away enough so that i could *spot* add flourite as the bottom substrate, topped it with gravel, then planted a plant on top. Plant (crypt) loved the flourite.

I rinsed the cup of flourite several times, lowered the cup into the tank (tank full of water mind you) and "poured" the flourite out of the cup. Insta cloudness.

It was messy enough that I didn't bother with it again, until i setup a different tank and could add it to the tank, tank empty of water.

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100 Dirt + Stuff. To be Angel baby tank.
37 Planted. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f45/pla...nal-20774.html
29 Tall community tank. 5+ Years up and running.
15 Soon to be RCS tank.

Do you currently have fish in the tank, if not, it's going to be easy. If you do, can you move them to another tank for 2 days? If so, it will be somewhat easy. If not, it's not going to be easy. What's your fish situation like?

Some folks grow creeping plants across the substrate. I like glossostigma e. For this reason, I use laterite and flourite on the surface layer of my substrate mixed with inert gravel. However I'd not ever recommend this to someone just getting started with plants. It's not possible to vacuum it easily, and those of us who believe in filters and water changes, it gets tricky and takes a bit of experience to figure out. Again I must emphasize my view that putting nutrients designed for root systems (plant substrate) up out of the reach of the roots is essentially gaining you nothing. It's like putting your fish food on the aquarium hood and hoping your fish can eat it if enough falls through the cracks.

Look, you've got inert substrate. It provides no nutrients. It's down where the roots are. Instead, that's where the nutrients need to be--at the roots, not up above them separated by a barrier of gravel rock. The theory that your plants are going to benefit from what flourite might settle down into the gravel is unrealistic.

If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, you can go ahead and dump it in the tank. You're going to accomplish a few things that way, so I'll tell you what to expect. First, you'll get the fuzzy. Then you'll be amazed at how dirty your water gets and that you can't see through it even with a high power LED beam. Third, you'll have wasted your money. Fourth, these things will start to settle into your mind and you'll start getting angry that your tank water is so filthy and that you did nothing to help your plants (AGAIN, with the exception of a small number of species such as ferns and mosses, roots don't grow above the water!). Fifth, after worrying if any fish you might have in the water are going to suffocate or be hurt from all the dust (they usually aren't affected too much actually), if you are like most people you will rush to do a water change, and again become frustrated at how dirty the water gets again after you do. After all of this drama you will realize the dust has to settle on its own, so you'll wait three days and the water will clear. Finally (I believe this brings us to the 7th step), you'll wonder why your canister filter is barely pushing out any water, and you'll have to clean the filter and replace any media finer than 30 ppi in density. That will cost you more time and money. By this time, the fuzzy will have worn off.

ASIDE:
Beaslbob appears to have a different take on things. It's great that his methods work for him, however I don't practice aquarium husbandry like beasl at all, neither do most. I can respect beasl for his ideas, after all, according to his signature he's probably been keeping aquariums longer than I've been alive. I do however have quite a bit of experience with planted tanks and plants in general and a good bit of understanding of what I'm doing. Given this, I must say that setting up a tank like beasl does sends up a million red flags for me, and while it might work for beasl, it is never the way I'd do things.

REALLY ASIDE:
Beasl-- without a renewable water source, how high is your TDS after three months, really? And when water evaps, you pour in more water right? In one way or another, you *are* replenishing the water. I am intrigued at what your biggest nitrate sinks are, because I'd love to get some like that; seriously I'd like to get a hold of some plants that remove enough nitrates to reach the point where they stay around (ideally) 20ppm with a decent bio-load of fauna, while somehow avoiding an eventual pH crash.

DIGRESSION:
To clarify, I personally I practice aquatic botany in the school of Tom Barr, with some twists to suit my needs, often more scientific than most. I mix and dose my own fertilizers and run CO2 to about 28ppm in a high light, "high tech" tank. The extra resulting carbonic acid eats through the KH buffer (present in my water source) enough that I change water freshly about 25% twice a week.

BACK ON TRACK:
Nature provides fish with a constantly renewed water source. Nature is what we strive try to recreate in order for fish and plants to remain healthy. This is why we cycle our tanks and change our water. Water changes remove excess nitrates that aren't consumed by plants (because if you are furnishing enough nitrates, there will be extra left over-- if not, you can't know for sure that the plants are getting all the nitrates they would otherwise consume and you end up with plants that don't grow at their most optimal rate). When fish aren't healthy enough, they die. When plants aren't healthy enough, they tend to gather algae in moderate to medium-high light.

We also change our water to keep the carbonate hardness high enough to avoid a pH crash. I'm going to assume that this is one of the reasons why beasl doses extra calcium; without it, the KH would dive, the plants can't grow, the fish can't respire, and the pH falls down the rabbit hole into acidic wonderland. Then your fish die, yada yada.

REALLY BACK ON TRACK:
sschreiner5, If you want to use the flourite, you've got to answer my earlier questions about your fish situation. After that, I can help you with a plan.

I do have fish in the tank now. When I first got the plants I had this great idea to put the plants in pots with dirt and bury the pots in my gravel. I got little tupperware containers and drilled hols in the bottom and cut slits in the side. I filled the cup with wet dirt and put the plant in. When I put the pot into the tank all the dirt came out of the pot and into the tank, the water turned black instantly. I had fish in there then too, it was a disaster. I was able to clear the water up buy taking a bunch of water out and strain the dirt through a towel and putting the water back into the tank. After about 4 times with my 5 gallon bucket the tank cleared up and I didnt lose any fish. I am not going through that again.
Moving the fish isnt an option, I only have 1 tank and 2 buckets.
I expermented a little today: I rinsed a bunch of flourite, 3 or four times and filled my bucket with water. I used those plastic tupperware containers from my potted plant disaster and filled that with flourite, when I lowered that into the bucket a small dust cloud started at the top of the tupperware but when I got the container to the bottom of the bucket the dust cloud dissappeared. The water in the bucket was clear. So I tried what Fishflow did and poured out the flourite on the bottom of the bucket and it worked! I put about 1 inch of flourite at the bottom of the bucket by scooping the flourite in with my "pot" and I could still see the bottom, the bucket was not very cloudy. So I'm thinking I will scoop out the gravel, pour in the flourite like I did in the bucket ans put my gravel back in. I dont plan to do the whole tank, I only have plants at the ends of my tank so I will only put flourite where the plants are. Heres a bad pic of tank after I put the plants in. The plants are at both ends of the bridge.

Good news that you were able to get the water from clouding up. Problem is, you don't want to rinse said that much. You rinse only once. The point of the substrate is to keep it full of the nutrients that it comes with. Not rinse them all out down to the bare rock.

If you can hold of till tomorrow, I'll write up instructions for your particular situation as I would handle it. I have to take off at the moment. Sorry I can't be more thorough.

Personally I'd take out the fish and keep them in a plastic storage box or something for a few hrs with the heater and an air stone while I redid the tank with the flourite on the bottom. It would be a pest, but the plants will recover quickly and the fish won't mind much, in the end it would be all done properly and will probably save a lot of messing around and regrets.

OK, the following write up gives you the steps the way I would do them.

It would be good if you could wait an extra day before you begin this process and use that time to not feed your fish and let them clear out all their waste without introducing more food. This won't hurt the fish. It will keep the process cleaner and during the time in the process that your filter is off, the fish will be more safe because they won't be filling the water with waste and causing ammonia buildup.

You're going to need about 4 buckets. Rinsed and properly sanitized rubbermaid plastic trash bins can also be used.

Before you begin, rinse the flourite once and set it aside. Now we begin:

1) Put on your patience hat. Prepare to spend a few hours on this project.

2) Get a bucket, put a single drop of seachem prime in it with a bubble stone. Fill the bucket with water FROM YOUR TANK The prime is less important, the bubble stone is more important. Do not use a drop of prime unless you have the bubble stone first! This might seem obvious, but make sure that bubbles are coming out of the stone after it's been placed in the water.

3) Disconnect your filter, and take a sponge from your filter and rinse it in dechlorinated water so all the mulm gets out. If you are using an HOB filter, use the bio-wheel from it instead. When it is no longer dirty, float it in the bucket

4) Drain your tank half way so it is easy to...

5) ...net all your fish and put them in the bucket with the bubble stone and the sponge/bio-wheel.

6) Find the lowest place in your tank and at that spot clear out a place in the gravel that is big enough to fit a coffee mug into it, dig it out all the way down to the glass.

7) Begin siphoning out the water from your tank. After the siphon has started, place the fish net over the end of the siphon hose in the tank. This will keep debris and gravel from floating up into the hose when you...

8) ...push the end of the hose down into the hole you made in your gravel

9) Continue the siphon until your tank is completely drained, down to the glass. A little thin layer of water on the bottom is alright, but do your best to get out all the water you can.

10) Fill in the hole in the gravel.

11) Remove your plants very gently and place them submerged into a bucket of dechlorinated water.

12) At this point you have a choice. If you want to use all the flourite, remove everything from your tank, gravel and all. By now you may start to think that this is taking a bit more time than you first thought it might. Whether you have decided to clear everything out and put in a complete layer of flourite, or to dig out select areas in the gravel instead, it's now time to...

13) ...put the flourite into the tank with a cup or trowel, scoop by scoop. Don't dump it unless you like breathing dust a lot and can't resist the craving. By using this scoop by scoop method you will be able to put the flourite exactly where you want it without disturbing and agitating it to the point where you get a mess and a mushroom cloud over your tank!

14) Once you have the flourite just how you want it, layer your normal gravel back over the flourite.

15) With sharp scissors, trim the very bottom of the roots on your plants--just the tips. Never trim a rhizome. This trimming stimulates new root re-growth and prevents root rot.

16) Re-plant your plants.

17) Place a dinner plate at the bottom of your tank.

18) Begin SLOWLY pouring water into the tank, directly onto the plate. Stop pouring when the water level is just barely higher than the flourite layer.

19) Let the water sit in the tank for a half an hour.

20) Begin pouring water into the tank again, this time stop when you have reached the top of your highest layer of gravel.

21) Take a half hour break.

22) Resume pouring water into the tank once more, letting it fall slowly onto the plate. Stop when the plate is barely submerged.

23) If the water is significantly cloudy, take a half hour break.

24) Place a brick into the tank or arrange some rocks upon which you can place the plate. This will elevate the plate a few more inches.

25) Again, begin pouring the water into the tank directly onto the plate until the plate is submerged once more.

26) If the water is more than slightly cloudy, let it sit another thirty minutes or more.

27) Keep pouring water SLOWLY into the tank so that it falls into the water just above the plate. Pour until the tank is full.

28) Wait another 30 minutes to an hour if the water is very cloudy.

29) Move the fish back to the tank, along with the sponge/bio-wheel.

30) Float the filter sponge or bio-wheel in the water of the tank, but do not put the bubble stone back into the tank. At this point the goal is to keep the water as still as possible for a full hour.

31) By now if you've done this right, your water should be only mildly cloudy and you should be able to see mostly through to the other size of your 20 gallon tank.

32) Put the filter sponge or bio-wheel back into the filter. Turn on the filter. No bubble wands or bubble stones on yet.

33) Enjoy the dusty water for one or two more days. It should be clear after that. At this point you can turn your bubbles back on if you use a bubble wand, stone, or other air-driven decor.

34) Clean your filter really well, using dechlorinator water. It will have become dirty from all the dust it cleared out of the water. If you have any filter media that is finer than 30ppi, the easy thing is to replace it. Just always be sure NOT to remove so much filter media that it would affect the beneficial bacteria colonies' ability to nitrify ammonia. Otherwise, thoroughly rinse it until it doesn't have any more dust.

Thanks for the pretty picture. Glad you got the flourite. Your current gravel is much too large for optimum root growth. You made a good move.

FYI here's a picture of what my overflow mat filter media looked like after doing a flourite tank the "right" way.

Ok. Thanks a lot. I am going to try it. I think I might have to leave a little water in the tank though. I have a Kuhli Loach and 3 Red Cherry shrimp I doubt I will be able to find or catch to remove them from the tank. I only see the shrimp once a week and Kuhli loach once a month.

Don't know TDS But kh 4 degres Gh 9 degrees constant for over 2 years.

nitrates hits ~30ppm during initial cycle 0ppm after that.

my .02

__________________
fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

Thank you for your thanks, and you're welcome ;-)