Is it ok to cycle your tank with plants in it? Or should you add the plants after cycling?

Hi. It's ok and better to cycle with plants, only thing you must take to consideration is that those plants must be plants that are not so sensitive, otherwise they can decay.

Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And IME you do need fast growing true aquatic plants.

I use a mix of fast and slow growers. Anacharis, vals for the fast growers. Small potted type and amazon swords for the slower growers.

What happens with enough plants you completely interrupt the ammonia->nitrItes->nitrate cycle because the plants prefer to consume the ammonia directly. So initially all you get is a nitrate bump up. Then as the aerobic bacteria build up the plants are forced to consume the nitrates so nitrAtes jump down.


my .02

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fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

Thanks for the quick responses. That's what I figured, but it doesn't hurt to double check. I'm not new to FW tanks, but it'll be my first time with a planted tank.

Just a few pointers.

1) have some peat moss in the substrate. (helps prevent hardness buildup over a few years) I use peat moss under play sand to hold down the floaties. And plant before I full the tank with water.

2) let the tank set for a week with the plants growing and no fish.

3) add a small fish load and don't add food for a week.

4) then add more fish and start feeding very very lightly.

Just my .02

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fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

Hi. Can you please explain me number 3.

sure.

When I first started doing this I would add food. In a 10g tank we're talking a single male platy. And just like clockwork the fish would start breathing heavy, lay on the bottom (after 4 days) then die on the 6 day.

the second platy always lived.

Then One time I just took the attitude, it's going to die anyway so I won't add food. And to my very big surprise it lived.

Somehow adding food increases the bioload beyond what the plants/tank can initially maintain. Not adding the food allows everything to remain in balance.

And this is not starving the fish. There are plenty of things on the plants like little bugs and even snail eggs for the fish to eat. So even during that first week, the fish is active, not breathing heavy, and pooping all the time. Meanwhile the fish is also keeping the plants clean in the process.

my .02

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fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

Hi. I Didn't even think about starving (fish can live witouth food for at least 10 or even 14 days). Why didn't you put in Discus? Did you ever heard for fishless cycling? Did you find any text or web site that say's platy is more capable of tolerating nitrite and amonium? What advantages method with fishes have? Do you think that adding food in aquarium (witouth fish) has evidently different impact on water parameters then live fish?

They were 10g tanks.

I have heard of fishless cycling and do not agree. After starting many tanks with this method and recently (and finally) actually measuring ammonia/nitrItes, I see no need to fishless cycling. ammonia/nitrIte values are almost non existent.

Platys could be more tollerant. I have also used these methods is neon tetras, angelfish and others.

Whey you cycle a tank with fish you not only establish the nitrogen cycle but also handle phosphates and carbon dioxide as well. So cycling with plants establishes the aguarium using the total of fish environment. And again there are no ammonia/nitrIte spikes. Plus you don't have to worry about getting the correct type of ammonia and so on.

I guess you could add food with no fish. I owuld feel nervious about that with the food rotting at the bottom of the tank. Could lead to fungus and other problems.

still just my .02

__________________
fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

Hi. Seems like you didn't try just with food- if not overdosing, there is no food on substrate . So you would probably try with discus if you had bigger aquarium (nope,.. Think that would be bad idea). Acctualy fishless cycling is faster because if haveing fish inside you must do partial water changes otherwise they are dead in few days (there is no bacteria at the begining in filter to waste nitrite) which means no2>0- which is bad for any freshwater organisms (including platy's), There are few ways of fishless cycling, one of them is adding filter material and water from pet shop or someone who has aquarium- result is ++ for fishes and time of cycling. Why you add fish in tank if there is no producing of amonia and nitrite (the aim is to add organic stuff in filter (in your case fish poo) to begin NITROGEN cycle which makes bacteria waste nitrite and produce nitrate). And there must be something wrong with your testers if they are showing amonia and nitrate level 0 when cycling with fish. (so that is a bit of bla bla) Actually cyclig is shorter word for Nitrogen cycle.

Concluding- when there is no bacteria in filter nitrogen cycle stops in 3.phase> we only have nitrite and ammonia.

You analysis if flawed in that ammoina is consumed directly by live plants as well as bacteria. In fact the plants actually prefer ammonia over nitrates. And will consume ammoina first then nitrates second. So even in a pristine bacteria free tank, there are no ammonia spikes when live plants are in use and keeping up with the ammonia being produced. to insure that I use lots fast growing plants, allow the plants to condition the tank a week before adding fish, add a small fish load, and add no food for the first week.

My test kits were fine and registered ammonia and nitrIte when present. In fact I did have very small one day bumps. ammonia and nitrates in the order of .25 ppm or so then then next day back to 0. And a small bump when I first started feeding that 1 flake per day.

I have added two lines to you chart to represent the plant action on ammonia. While it is correct in a mature tank that ammonia is being reduced with aerobic bacteria that is not the entire picture. The plants will consume the ammonia when the bacteria is not sufficient.

I also do not remove nitrates with water changes because I do none. nitrates and poshpates are unmeasureable with no water changes.

Attached Images

Nitrogen%20Cycle.jpg (40.8 KB, 7 views)

__________________
fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

Hi. Don't you understaind, there is no NO3 witouth NO2- if there is no bacteria then there is no NO3 (just no2)- is deadly for any fish. (and I know about plants for consuming NO3! no2 stays where it is if there is no bacteria. And the most commonly used plant in UK or Germany is Ceratophyllum demersum). Do you have any sceme showing plants consume NO2 and platys tolerate higher no2 values- please paste it.

Hi. Have to appologise to igot2gats for hindering your thread, but as the same time take it as useful data.

No apology needed. This was all very useful information, & it related to the thread, IMO. Keep it coming.


So in your experiences, it's ok to cycle with fish? I'm going to be having a Tetra & Rainbow dominated tank.

Is there any downfall to fishless cycling?

Everything I've ever read in articles & forums say fishless cycling is the only safe way to cycle a planted tank.

I plan on using Seachem Flourite as my substrate. Does that have peat moss in it?

A couple more things:

1. do you feed your plants during the cycling process?

2. what is a good plant food?

Hi. As I wrote above, method with fishes is leasting longer then fishless cycling and is considered as torturing- NOWHERE on the web you can find any data that says any fish can tolerate ammonium and nitrite! People are usualy using platys, danios or green zebra chiclids in a way that these are low prized fish that can dye and there will be no big damage (nobody trys with discus and if somebody dares to write he will do that with discus he will absolutely end up as madman)- but in that way discus is eqvivalent to all fishes writen above. The best and fastest method is to insert water and filter material from aquarium that is yet cycled. (shop or private aquarist) I don't know about sachem but you don't need to feed plants when cycled. In my experience the best fertilizer is nutrafin kapsuls and I add every week a dose of iron an kalium.

+1 and a very interesting discussion. I will post a graph of parameters on a 20g long planted I started to show my points later. Yes as long as you first get the plants thriving and add the fish slowlyYes. It only cycles the nitrogen part of the tank and does nothing to establish co2 and oxygen levels plus other things such as phosphates. It also does nothing to condition the water hardness wise and for other toxins such as copper and the like. When you don't get the right ammonia you are actually adding toxins that should not be added under any conditions. Plus it can stall and take months before complete. But all that is just my observations from threads on this and other forums. Now have another viewpoint.

__________________
fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

don't know.

I also hear it is a fine substrate and looks nice.

here is what I use from bottom to top

1" peat moss
1" play sand
1" pro choice select.

each added, watered to the top of that level, leveled, and the tank cleaned.

then I plant the plants and finally fill the tank to the top with water poured over a dish. I have found that method results in an almost clear tank immediately. the peat prevents KH and GH values from rising and dkh was 4 and dgh was 9 for years. Neons thrives whereas they did not last long with just sand.

Costs are:
sphagham peat moss (now ferts added) 2/3 yeard bale $11
play sand 50 pounds $3
pc select 50 pounds $8

Which is enough to do many many tanks.

the pro choice select is used for baseball infields and I had to email the manufacturer and special order to get locally. It is a red/brown color. I have also used pro choice select charcoal which is a nice black mud but is no longer available and did cause some clouding. I understand john deere landscaping has a substute for the pc select charcoal but have not used.

my .02

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fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden

yes and no. Just the nutrients in the tap water and from the fish. No added nutrients.Fish wastes.

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fw leiden since 1979, fo salt since 1979, mixed reef 55g 2002-2009. Strong emphasis on the tank taking care of itself. Balanced with plant life, no water changes, tap water, no filters in FW. Only dosing calcium, alk, mag in marine reef tanks. http://www.aquariumforum.com/f15/my-...ods-26410.html
recent tanks (till 2009) 7 years- 10g FW leiden 7 yrs, 55g mixed reef 7, 2 yrs, 20g FW leiden, 10 g fw leiden , 29g mixed reef, current tank 55g leiden